RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Barry Lichter

Brace yourself for serious stake cuts

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Within this story is a telling comment "Clubs receive no extra for increased On-course T'O due to the Bulk Funding Model" (sic)

Therefore Clubs do not try to increase On-course T'O by promotions or advertising as there is no reward to do so

On-course T'O's dwindled, and with recent changes they are non-existent ($7000) 

Mikie

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If funding is reduced by 25%, as indicated by Holden, it is imperative that this reduction should be made at the top level. For example, the New Zealand Cup could be run for $150,000 rather than $600,000 and still have the same field. Stakes at the lower level are already way too low. If you win a race you would be lucky if the stake won would cover 2 months training fees. If racing is going to continue there must be incentives at the lower end to at least give owners a chance of covering costs

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21 minutes ago, Stables said:

If funding is reduced by 25%, as indicated by Holden, it is imperative that this reduction should be made at the top level. For example, the New Zealand Cup could be run for $150,000 rather than $600,000 and still have the same field. Stakes at the lower level are already way too low. If you win a race you would be lucky if the stake won would cover 2 months training fees. If racing is going to continue there must be incentives at the lower end to at least give owners a chance of covering costs

Couldn't agree more and have said the same for years

Mikie

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1 hour ago, Stables said:

If funding is reduced by 25%, as indicated by Holden, it is imperative that this reduction should be made at the top level. For example, the New Zealand Cup could be run for $150,000 rather than $600,000 and still have the same field. Stakes at the lower level are already way too low. If you win a race you would be lucky if the stake won would cover 2 months training fees. If racing is going to continue there must be incentives at the lower end to at least give owners a chance of covering costs

And it is also time to ban acceptance fees On group races so owners don’t get fleeced  For gst for the sake of artificially inflating the race stakes. 

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30 minutes ago, lamour said:

And it is also time to ban acceptance fees On group races so owners don’t get fleeced  For gst for the sake of artificially inflating the race stakes. 

 Also right

Mikie

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2 hours ago, Mikie said:

Couldn't agree more and have said the same for years

Mikie

Using your 'footy' analogy thats like paying club players more while cutting back on the salaries of International/ Star players.

Water down Group races and it may sustain the Industry for another 12-18 months but the breeding side of the Industry would soon collapse as would ownership / betting /stakes and speed up the demise of even more clubs .

Your club has been very well represented at the decision-making level for a long time so surely the word got through , the frail nature of the Industry must have been so very obvious !

So who would not listen , who or what clubs insisted on Harness travelling on the road to certain decline ? Answers please.

The Earthquakes obviously hurt Christchurch for a while , while the ATC tried their own tragic path to try and future proof their future but what did the rest  or the Industry as a whole do !

That's all behind us now .......betting on NZ Harness has been in steep decline in recent years and Aussies bet more on our races than we do !

The big question is what can done to try and sustain the industry and give our young participants some hope for their future !Answers please !

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4 minutes ago, Stables said:

Tasman Man, the breeding side of the industry is already stuffed. If racing takes your path the whole industry will be gone

Not necessarily my path !

Trying to get the answers/solutions out of Mikie who agreed the lower end needs  more incentives.

NZ Racing has for some time had one of ,if not the lowest , return to owners on the globe.

Something ,well below 30 cents in $.

I read somewhere that since payments made to all starters , 30% of horses earn over $10k in a season. Do the Math......training fees vary a lot especially South/North.

Yet the licensed participants number has had little change in recent times ...NZ owners and trainers very resilient.

Mikie has many strings to his bows...breeder , owner,trainer , driver , club secretary , funder , sponsor , great experience of the workings of many of NZ clubs and tracks and ties with the Industries leaders and decision makers.

His views are of interest.

I gather that you like me are an enthusiastic but amateur participant who makes the odd inane post on social media !

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Tasman Man quote "Using your 'footy' analogy thats like paying club players more while cutting back on the salaries of International/ Star players"

No, you are incorrect. That's not a good analogy because the huge majority of Club players aren't paid at all. My analogy would be a NRL team and comparing the payments to journeyman players as opposed to International/Star players. In this case I think that the journeyman player is underpaid and the Star player is overpaid. 

Tasman Man again, quote: "Water down Group races and it may sustain the Industry for another 12-18 months but the breeding side of the Industry would soon collapse as would ownership / betting /stakes and speed up the demise of even more clubs ."  

So your solution is to keep paying exorbitant Group stakes and pay a pittance for the lower classes. Worked well so far hasn't it?

Tasman Man again:  "Your club has been very well represented at the decision-making level for a long time so surely the word got through , the frail nature of the Industry must have been so very obvious !"

I think I have told you that it isn't "my" Club. Additionally when my area last had a representative on the Board that makes the important decisions it was called the NZRB, not the NZRIB or RITA, and things were quite good in that era.

Tasman Man again: "Trying to get the answers/solutions out of Mikie who agreed the lower end needs  more incentives."

This statement really pisses me off. It implies that you have been trying to get answers from me and they are not forthcoming. For the record you asked me questions 14 hours ago, then post 13 hours ago implying that I am not prepared to answer you. FFS, I hadn't even read your first post

I am quite prepared to reply to you. Firstly, to me, solutions and answers are 2 different things.

A solution, to me, is something that can be done to fix matters, as in provide a solution, to make things better and for everyone to be happy. I don't have a solution, I have never said I have a solution. I don't think that after a decade of mismanagement and largess by the NZRIB, by 18 months give or take of inaction by Rita prior to Covid, plus Covid, plus the recent decisions of RITA that there is a solution. The corpse is cold so to speak. (HRNZ being the poor relation to the Thoroughbred vote don't appear to have done too much wrong, although I slate the Bulk Funding decision as stupid and the Ratings system as a shambles)

Answers are a bit different. If we are to keep playing with the corpse then we have to cut the cloth to suit. Nothing too clever with this. Many other posters have said it and I've agreed with them. I did have some figures on hand previously and from memory cutting the Group Subsidies back would provide enough funds to add $2000 to every lower class race in New Zealand. I would be quite happy with a NZ Cup of $150,000 and every other Group race be $100,000 or less if it meant that maiden races were $6000 instead of $4000, or $7000 instead of $5000.

I totally agree with you that the lowering of the top end stakes would have a negative effect. Any decision that benefits one usually affects another (handicapping for example). However the lowering of the lower end stakes would have a worse effect, and ultimately have the same effect on top end stakes anyway

Tasman Man again: "The Earthquakes obviously hurt Christchurch for a while , while the ATC tried their own tragic path to try and future proof their future but what did the rest  or the Industry as a whole do !"

I'm not sure that the earthquake affected Addington negatively long term to be blunt.  Enough has been said about ATC's path.  You ask what other Clubs have done? I would say they have voiced their opposition on a number of decisions but the voting spread at Conference level doesn't give them much of a voice. Certainly Westport for many years have pointed out how much the Group Subsidies suck from Club's own Commissions.

Tasman Man: "The big question is what can done to try and sustain the industry and give our young participants some hope for their future !Answers please !"  

What young participants? RITA's decision as to race tracks won't mean many young ones coming from the bottom half of the North Island will it? (Although I think this decision will be reversed somewhat)

Help us out Tasman Man, what's your solution?

Mikie

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11 hours ago, Stables said:

Mikie does have an extensive knowledge of the industry, but has not been invoved for some time. I agree that my background would be similar to yours but I believe mine would be a greater and more current vested interest 

Really Stables?

I am still an Owner and a Breeder.

It has only been 3 years since I was an Administrator, Trainer and average Driver

Does that mean "I have not been involved for some time"?

With your way of thinking Geoff Toovey can't ever coach at NRL level, as after all it's been over 3 years since he last did so. Kevin Walters similarly stuffed is he?

Jeff Wilson's views on Rugby are therefore also nil are they, as after all he hasn't played for a while? Sure, he has commented on Rugby but according to you that doesn't count as I comment on Racecafe but that means "I haven't been involved"

Mikie

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This comment was not directed at you, it was in reply to Tasman Mans statement  that I am an amateur participant that makes the odd inane post. I'm well  aware of your involvement in the industry and I am always interedsted to read your posts as they generally add a lot to the subject being debated. My one concern is your hyper agrressiveness to even the remotest indication of criticism towards you

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45 minutes ago, Stables said:

This comment was not directed at you, it was in reply to Tasman Mans statement  that I am an amateur participant that makes the odd inane post. I'm well  aware of your involvement in the industry and I am always interedsted to read your posts as they generally add a lot to the subject being debated. My one concern is your hyper agrressiveness to even the remotest indication of criticism towards you

The "comment was not directed at me"?

You said "Mikie...has not been involved for some time"

Don't you remember what you type Stables?

I don't think I am aggressive,. nor hyper aggressive, to criticism. In fact most of my posts that disagree with you are in response to a statement you have made without any facts at all proffered, or a post you have made wanting to close every smaller Club in the country. If I am hyper aggressive what is P4P?

I can't even remember a post of yours actually criticising me.

Mikie

 

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59 minutes ago, Stables said:

My one concern is your hyper agrressiveness to even the remotest indication of criticism towards you

Might be the sign of a troll and/or bully Stable.s. Given his history take it easy

 

Greg

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28 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Might be the sign of a troll and/or bully Stable.s. Given his history take it easy

 

Greg

a "Troll", coming from you?

That's rich

Stables doesn't need to take it easy, as long as he doesn't just make statements that he hasn't got any facts to back up me and him are fine. 

You, on the other hand, are as described previously, a wimpy keyboard warrior hiding away in the shadows who can't even tell us what he has achieved in the industry

You've been pulverised by Chief Stipe on the other channel, better stick to here you gutless wonder

Mikie

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45 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Keep up , the top tier took a 20% cut 3 months ago

 

Greg

So did just about everyone in over paid positions

So what?

If you are on $300,000, and that's over paid by 100%, and you take a 20% cut, you are still overpaid by 60%

Mikie

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22 minutes ago, Mikie said:

a "Troll", coming from you?

That's rich

Stables doesn't need to take it easy, as long as he doesn't just make statements that he hasn't got any facts to back up me and him are fine. 

You, on the other hand, are as described previously, a wimpy keyboard warrior hiding away in the shadows who can't even tell us what he has achieved in the industry

You've been pulverised by Chief Stipe on the other channel, better stick to here you gutless wonder

Mikie

My response was to Stables . Not you. 

As for the above drivel. It's just that.

 

Greg

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10 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

My response was to Stables . Not you. 

As for the above drivel. It's just that.

 

Greg

Oh? So if you reply to a poster that's sacrosanct? No one else can post? Are they your rules or Race Cafe's rules?

Interested in what is drivel? Chief Stipe pulverising you? That appears pretty obvious

Your comment about salary cuts? My post sums that up

I think that it is you that responds hyper aggressively whenever you are criticised. Unfortunately for you that's like the mouse that roared. You don't worry anyone, you're obviously related to someone on RITA or have an unhealthy fascination with someone on there as you are always toeing the party line. You also make out that you "are in the know" which is rubbish, you are not in the know, you just regurgitate rumours.

Always "give them time" or "it takes time". FFS, they had the best part of 18 months to do something before Covid struck and all they did was accept John Allen's resignation. Just give a plain answer for once, why did it take until a pandemic struck to restructure? Wasn't the guts of 18 months long enough?

You're full of crap and a couple of sammies short of a picnic

Mikie

 

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Mike, your responses to JJ Flash are aggressive and not necessary. Surely we can debate issues without your over the top responses. You refer to P4P being aggressive and I would agree with you, but we don't want another P4P on this site, one is more than enough

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18 minutes ago, Stables said:

Mike, your responses to JJ Flash are aggressive and not necessary. Surely we can debate issues without your over the top responses. You refer to P4P being aggressive and I would agree with you, but we don't want another P4P on this site, one is more than enough

JJ Flash hurled insults at me and I feel I’m entitled to respond in kind. 

3 hours ago, JJ Flash said:

Might be the sign of a troll and/or bully Stable.s. Given his history take it easy

 

Greg

Additionally he’s a Dickhead. What history JJ Flash? Please enlighten us as to why Stables should “take it easy”?

Mikie

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