Tony 159 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 With racing about to resume NZTR have put protocols in place in case there are to many nominations at time of acceptance. The excess horses will be Balloted or eliminated and would hopefully get a start the following week. I think that Owners that don't owe any Nomination, Acceptance, scratching fees etc should be the first horses in. With this huge outstanding debt of 1.7 million for nomination and acceptance fees of which 750K belongs to Trainers why should the owners who have been paying all along have their horses eliminated before these non payers. I know that the CD Branch of the Owners Federation has asked NZTR to ask for collateral security from these bigger debtors before racing starts. You are in some cases talking tens of thousands of dollars and possibly six figures in some cases. Bernard Saundry and James Dunne have been brutal in their attacks on some smaller participants that have owed money and in some cases been in the process of paying money back. The NZTR Board Members have been aware of the way that Saundry and Dunne have operated against these minnows. Where are the Board members now. Is it because the culprits are either friends/ or colleagues of Board Members that they are staying silent. If Saundry, Dunne and the NZTR Board Members are not prepared to act and retrieve the bulk of this money owed then they should resign. In the past huge amounts have been written off. Will this be the pattern again and history repeat itself. Are owners happy to have the horses they have worked hard to pay for in training be eliminated from races while the recipients of this preferential treatment get first options on starting. The time has come for owners to say NO Huey, puha, Pam Robson and 10 others 10 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 42 minutes ago, Tony said: With racing about to resume NZTR have put protocols in place in case there are to many nominations at time of acceptance. The excess horses will be Balloted or eliminated and would hopefully get a start the following week. I think that Owners that don't owe any Nomination, Acceptance, scratching fees etc should be the first horses in. With this huge outstanding debt of 1.7 million for nomination and acceptance fees of which 750K belongs to Trainers why should the owners who have been paying all along have their horses eliminated before these non payers. I know that the CD Branch of the Owners Federation has asked NZTR to ask for collateral security from these bigger debtors before racing starts. You are in some cases talking tens of thousands of dollars and possibly six figures in some cases. Bernard Saundry and James Dunne have been brutal in their attacks on some smaller participants that have owed money and in some cases been in the process of paying money back. The NZTR Board Members have been aware of the way that Saundry and Dunne have operated against these minnows. Where are the Board members now. Is it because the culprits are either friends/ or colleagues of Board Members that they are staying silent. If Saundry, Dunne and the NZTR Board Members are not prepared to act and retrieve the bulk of this money owed then they should resign. In the past huge amounts have been written off. Will this be the pattern again and history repeat itself. Are owners happy to have the horses they have worked hard to pay for in training be eliminated from races while the recipients of this preferential treatment get first options on starting. The time has come for owners to say NO Yes. The RIU should be active in sorting this out. It is a matter of licence holders and owners compliance with the Rules. fermoy, Huey, dock leaf and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 44 minutes ago, Tony said: With racing about to resume NZTR have put protocols in place in case there are to many nominations at time of acceptance. The excess horses will be Balloted or eliminated and would hopefully get a start the following week. I think that Owners that don't owe any Nomination, Acceptance, scratching fees etc should be the first horses in. With this huge outstanding debt of 1.7 million for nomination and acceptance fees of which 750K belongs to Trainers why should the owners who have been paying all along have their horses eliminated before these non payers. I know that the CD Branch of the Owners Federation has asked NZTR to ask for collateral security from these bigger debtors before racing starts. You are in some cases talking tens of thousands of dollars and possibly six figures in some cases. Bernard Saundry and James Dunne have been brutal in their attacks on some smaller participants that have owed money and in some cases been in the process of paying money back. The NZTR Board Members have been aware of the way that Saundry and Dunne have operated against these minnows. Where are the Board members now. Is it because the culprits are either friends/ or colleagues of Board Members that they are staying silent. If Saundry, Dunne and the NZTR Board Members are not prepared to act and retrieve the bulk of this money owed then they should resign. In the past huge amounts have been written off. Will this be the pattern again and history repeat itself. Are owners happy to have the horses they have worked hard to pay for in training be eliminated from races while the recipients of this preferential treatment get first options on starting. The time has come for owners to say NO Great post Tony ,couldn't agree more! barryb, fermoy, ivanthegreat and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 1203 (1) From the date a person’s name appears on the Arrears List, or in any official arrears list published by Another Racing Authority: (a) a horse in which such person has an interest, or NZTR reasonably considers to be under that person’s care, training, management, control or superintendence shall not be eligible to be entered in or start in any Race, unless NZTR approves otherwise in writing; (b) such person shall not enter or start a horse in a Race or trial, (including a jump-out or test for certification purposes); and (c) such person shall not enter or go upon a Racecourse or a Training Facility. Any person who acts in contravention of this paragraph (c) shall be removed from such facility by NZTR and commits a Serious Racing Offence. fermoy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtab 95 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 As an owner i am horrified that nobody has been named and shamed.I have paid all my bills and i expect everybody else should do the same or be penalised as the rules state ,no exceptions napier, ADM, fermoy and 3 others 6 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southland 91 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 I recall that NZTRs bad debtors used to be published in their Thoroughbred Racing Monthly mag (now online). It appears that this no longer happens. Isn’t it time there was some public disclosure given the level of monies owed? Huey, fermoy and napier 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtab 95 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 No Tonto and the Lone Ranger do not have balls, they will do another horse trough incident Huey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 Just now, dbtab said: As an owner i am horrified that nobody has been named and shamed.I have paid all my bills and i expect everybody else should do the same or be penalised as the rules state ,no exceptions Totally. No horse should run in any race where any connections are or should be on the Arrears list. Them's the rules. If they do or have then the results of those races must be amended to exclude those horses. This is the RIU's job to enforce the rules. dock leaf, napier and fermoy 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtab 95 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 If my horse fails to get a start because some person who owes money how can i stop this if there is no information who owes what Leggy, fermoy and Huey 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 The rules say "An Arrears List shall be kept and, from time to time, published in whole or in part by NZTR" I've requested it from Saundry.. Huey, fermoy, Black Kirrama and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
puha 2,177 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 Maybe we need a statement from Mr Saundry to set things straight and let us all know if this is fact or fiction . fermoy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtab 95 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 Hope you will post Leggy when you get it ,i bet he will not get back to you fermoy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 9 minutes ago, puha said: Maybe we need a statement from Mr Saundry to set things straight and let us all know if this is fact or fiction . It was asked in his facebook session a couple of weeks ago and he dodged the question. Huey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 15 minutes ago, dbtab said: If my horse fails to get a start because some person who owes money how can i stop this if there is no information who owes what What if it gets a start and gets beaten by a horse whose connections are or should be on the Arrears list and not therefore eligible to hold a licence or race the horse? fermoy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtab 95 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 I just went on Love Racing site and typed for the list and it is obvious that it has not been updated for a couple of years Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 7, 2020 4 hours ago, Leggy said: 1203 (1) From the date a person’s name appears on the Arrears List, or in any official arrears list published by Another Racing Authority: (a) a horse in which such person has an interest, or NZTR reasonably considers to be under that person’s care, training, management, control or superintendence shall not be eligible to be entered in or start in any Race, unless NZTR approves otherwise in writing; (b) such person shall not enter or start a horse in a Race or trial, (including a jump-out or test for certification purposes); and (c) such person shall not enter or go upon a Racecourse or a Training Facility. Any person who acts in contravention of this paragraph (c) shall be removed from such facility by NZTR and commits a Serious Racing Offence. (2) From the date a horse’s name appears in the Arrears List it shall, during the period it is listed, be prohibited from being entered for or being started in a Race and from being taken for any purposes to a Racecourse or into any other place controlled by a Club or any consortium or other entity of which a Club is a member or in which it is a participant. Any person who acts in contravention of this sub-Rule (2) commits a Serious Racing Offence, and the horse involved shall be, in addition to any other penalty which may be imposed, disqualified for the Race. dock leaf and Black Kirrama 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meomy 971 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 On 6/7/2020 at 4:26 PM, Leggy said: 1203 (1) From the date a person’s name appears on the Arrears List, or in any official arrears list published by Another Racing Authority: (a) a horse in which such person has an interest, or NZTR reasonably considers to be under that person’s care, training, management, control or superintendence shall not be eligible to be entered in or start in any Race, unless NZTR approves otherwise in writing; (b) such person shall not enter or start a horse in a Race or trial, (including a jump-out or test for certification purposes); and (c) such person shall not enter or go upon a Racecourse or a Training Facility. Any person who acts in contravention of this paragraph (c) shall be removed from such facility by NZTR and commits a Serious Racing Offence. 11 November 2019 appears to be the most recent ARREARS LIST- tucked away under Official Notices. Is there a common theme however of owners not paying trainers? If so what is been done to address it? https://loveracing.nz/nztr/info-and-comms/nztr-publications https://loveracing.nz/OnHorseFiles/Downloads/ARREARS LIST - 11 NOVEMBER 2019.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripple alliance 1,026 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 24 minutes ago, meomy said: 11 November 2019 appears to be the most recent ARREARS LIST- tucked away under Official Notices. Is there a common theme however of owners not paying trainers? If so what is been done to address it? https://loveracing.nz/nztr/info-and-comms/nztr-publications https://loveracing.nz/OnHorseFiles/Downloads/ARREARS LIST - 11 NOVEMBER 2019.pdf Reading the arrears list you provide it seems there is nothing to this issue , no high profile operators or any large amounts owed by anyone . The list just shows what a group of individuals who have left the industry owe , good luck with collecting that . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Sugrue 190 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 I seem to recall.......................in his Facebook Live, Saundry didn't deny it was 1.7 mil.....rather stated that it was a complex matter.....and that he was working through it would seem to suggest the Nov 2019 List …..is incomplete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 20 minutes ago, tripple alliance said: Reading the arrears list you provide it seems there is nothing to this issue , no high profile operators or any large amounts owed by anyone . The list just shows what a group of individuals who have left the industry owe , good luck with collecting that . If that's all there is to it, why does Bernard Saundry keep avoiding the issue. A simple referral to the list on this thread would suffice to those with concerns. More to it than meets the eye. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 And over 6 months since it was published. What worries me is that if there were people who should have been on it that weren't but should not have been racing/training horses during that period, in fact have been. If anyone lost races to horses that should not have started, then it's not just complex but a huge mess and a gigantic integrity and transparency issue. Not saying that has happened, hopefully not but I fail to see why the matter can not be promptly clarified with appropriate and necessary detail provided. Huey, Sobeit and napier 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripple alliance 1,026 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 9 minutes ago, Roger Sugrue said: I seem to recall.......................in his Facebook Live, Saundry didn't deny it was 1.7 mil.....rather stated that it was a complex matter.....and that he was working through it would seem to suggest the Nov 2019 List …..is incomplete The Nov list may be incomplete but not that far out of date , Nov 2019 , we have been out of business for almost 3 months so really it's quite up to date . Perhaps there is more money owed who knows but it could be these other debts (if they exist) don't qualify to be on the list which means the rules around this issue don't apply . Now if anyone can prove a horse has a debt that should have been on the list surrounding it when it wins then I think a protest by the horses who finish behind it is in order . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, tripple alliance said: The Nov list may be incomplete but not that far out of date , Nov 2019 , we have been out of business for almost 3 months so really it's quite up to date . Not really. There's a lot of 28 day periods come and gone between then and now. Arrears means any money payable by any person or body under these Rules or payable to NZTR or a Club in connection with any of its activities or operations and which remains unpaid for more than 28 days after becoming due for payment and includes any money or payment specifically deemed by any of these Rules to be Arrears. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony 159 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 I seem to recall.......................in his Facebook Live, Saundry didn't deny it was 1.7 mil.....rather stated that it was a complex matter.....and that he was working through it would seem to suggest the Nov 2019 List …..is incomplete I understand that the 1.7 million was as at July 31st 2019 so with an extra 8 months of racing the figure may be incorrect. You decide which way it might have moved. Bernard Saundry is dancing around the issue and it is very real and very complex alright. Especially if you have to front up to somebody who doesn't want to pay and thinks that racing can't do with out them. The simple "Bullying and intimidation" tactics that Saundry and James Dunne employee on small time participants won't work here. Huey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,093 Report post Posted June 8, 2020 23 minutes ago, Tony said: I seem to recall.......................in his Facebook Live, Saundry didn't deny it was 1.7 mil.....rather stated that it was a complex matter.....and that he was working through it would seem to suggest the Nov 2019 List …..is incomplete I understand that the 1.7 million was as at July 31st 2019 so with an extra 8 months of racing the figure may be incorrect. You decide which way it might have moved. Bernard Saundry is dancing around the issue and it is very real and very complex alright. Especially if you have to front up to somebody who doesn't want to pay and thinks that racing can't do with out them. The simple "Bullying and intimidation" tactics that Saundry and James Dunne employee on small time participants won't work here. That's correct. It's in the annual report. Increased from $1 million July 2018. 2019 2018 Trade and sundry debtors from exchange transactions 2.2 1,711,725 1,033,143 Trade and sundry debtors from non-exchange transactions 2.2 46,750 73,768 I note that only about 250,000 of that was more than 30 days past due. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...