RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Barry Lichter

Minister announces emergency $72.5 million for racing

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27 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

Nobody wants the AW tracks its another dinosaur...you wait till horses start breaking down left right and centre...and they will I have seen first hand what happens on these BS tracks....They should have gone with Strathayr and had world class tracks that punters love...but no they went the dumb way as normal.

 

So right we still using old soil based tracks that can only take so much Strathayr race on all year round no problem good genuine racing. We well behind here 

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10 hours ago, Idolmite said:

And the NZ Herald is tonight suggesting in an article that one of the "hooks" is that NZ'ers will be prevented from betting with overseas betting agencies, in the hope that substantial amount will then filter through the NZ TAB instead. Thoughts? 

Be fine if they can offer a competitive product and not restrict punters. 

I have two horses for an owner who makes his money to race horses from his punting activities but can't get set for anything decent  with the  NZ TAB so would be a loss to ownership if offshore accounts were closed. 

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2 hours ago, scooby3051 said:

Nobody wants the AW tracks its another dinosaur...you wait till horses start breaking down left right and centre...and they will I have seen first hand what happens on these BS tracks....They should have gone with Strathayr and had world class tracks that punters love...but no they went the dumb way as normal.

 

I totally agree , but for me the biggest issue , and i have stated it on here before , is the lack of horse population .These surfaces tend to be specialist surfaces , you see it in Australia where these tracks are , that it's pretty much the same horses racing regularly . We don't have the population for it , once a horse has raced poorly on it , it wont be back and eventually the numbers will get too low to be feasible . Avondale night racing was the same , horses were tried and many just didn't deal with night racing and eventually numbers became untenable . 

Our population of racehorses basically consist of whats left after the sales , trials etc . We are left with what overseas don't want . The majority of horse aren't blessed with great speed , the difference between good and average horses is speed/sprint . And that's fine we have to live with this situation as we have made it , i know i've sold to Asia , so i haven't helped the situation and i know plenty of others who have done the same . It is what it is . But a lot of theses horse also require wet tracks to help them be competitive , so what happens to them if a lot of our winter racing goes to A/W tracks ?

And if as Scooby suggests and horses start to break limbs and breakdown and owners and trainers say , not risking any more of my horses again , what then . 

The argument for them came about because of the loss of 38 meetings back in 2018 , but how many did we lose the year before that or last year ? . 2018 was an aberration , the summer before it never stopped raining so by the time we got to winter , April even , the water table was albut maxed out . We lost a large number of those meetings due to flooding . So the kneejerk reaction out of it was we needed A/W tracks . 

I M O these tracks will eventually become a white elephant and when the shit hits the fan and the A/W's aren't the saviour we said they were going to be and joe public asks " why have you'v just wasted $30 mill on them " , what do we say , " give us some more please " .

Again I M O the money should be utilized by doing major track upgrades on 5/6 main tracks , contract the best in the world to manage this . Plus maintain them , give punters confidence in the product , I don't believe A/W's do that , again just MO . 

Winston says " let's make racing great again " . We need to get real , racing wont ever be great again , but it can be very good and sustainable .

I fear we are being led down the garden path again , and we all know our recent history of lavish promises , i know i wont be rushing out to buy a horse to race on A/W tracks , how many others are thinking the same , time will tell .

I hope i'm wrong , i hope in 5yrs i can come on here and say i was completely wrong , i'm sure there will be plenty saying that now . 

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2 minutes ago, nomates said:

I totally agree , but for me the biggest issue , and i have stated it on here before , is the lack of horse population .These surfaces tend to be specialist surfaces , you see it in Australia where these tracks are , that it's pretty much the same horses racing regularly . We don't have the population for it , once a horse has raced poorly on it , it wont be back and eventually the numbers will get too low to be feasible . Avondale night racing was the same , horses were tried and many just didn't deal with night racing and eventually numbers became untenable . 

Our population of racehorses basically consist of whats left after the sales , trials etc . We are left with what overseas don't want . The majority of horse aren't blessed with great speed , the difference between good and average horses is speed/sprint . And that's fine we have to live with this situation as we have made it , i know i've sold to Asia , so i haven't helped the situation and i know plenty of others who have done the same . It is what it is . But a lot of theses horse also require wet tracks to help them be competitive , so what happens to them if a lot of our winter racing goes to A/W tracks ?

And if as Scooby suggests and horses start to break limbs and breakdown and owners and trainers say , not risking any more of my horses again , what then . 

The argument for them came about because of the loss of 38 meetings back in 2018 , but how many did we lose the year before that or last year ? . 2018 was an aberration , the summer before it never stopped raining so by the time we got to winter , April even , the water table was albut maxed out . We lost a large number of those meetings due to flooding . So the kneejerk reaction out of it was we needed A/W tracks . 

I M O these tracks will eventually become a white elephant and when the shit hits the fan and the A/W's aren't the saviour we said they were going to be and joe public asks " why have you'v just wasted $30 mill on them " , what do we say , " give us some more please " .

Again I M O the money should be utilized by doing major track upgrades on 5/6 main tracks , contract the best in the world to manage this . Plus maintain them , give punters confidence in the product , I don't believe A/W's do that , again just MO . 

Winston says " let's make racing great again " . We need to get real , racing wont ever be great again , but it can be very good and sustainable .

I fear we are being led down the garden path again , and we all know our recent history of lavish promises , i know i wont be rushing out to buy a horse to race on A/W tracks , how many others are thinking the same , time will tell .

I hope i'm wrong , i hope in 5yrs i can come on here and say i was completely wrong , i'm sure there will be plenty saying that now . 

Agree,   absolutely.

And, as well, the synthetic or alternative surfaces or whatever you like to term them, don't last forever.   Trialling AND racing AND working will be high wear-and-tear for sure.  Maintenance requirements are quite significant I believe,  and then they will need to be re-laid.   That will get no cheaper.   

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If these synthetic tracks seen as a disaster , why are so many prominent trainers supporting them ?

This includes MPitman in South , plus several top Awapuni and Waikato trainers.

They are positioned in the 3 x areas where our horse populations are and these areas are where a majority of our races will be held.

In recent seasons NZ has had 9 to 13 meetings cancelled , and well over 100 races.....at great cost to the TAB.

 

The ship is sinking ,its time for a change ......lets embrace he change and get on with it.

I think we got little to lose .

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3 minutes ago, tasman man 11 said:

If these synthetic tracks seen as a disaster , why are so many prominent trainers supporting them ?

This includes MPitman in South , plus several top Awapuni and Waikato trainers.

They are positioned in the 3 x areas where our horse populations are and these areas are where a majority of our races will be held.

In recent seasons NZ has had 9 to 13 meetings cancelled , and well over 100 races.....at great cost to the TAB.

 

The ship is sinking ,its time for a change ......lets embrace he change and get on with it.

I think we got little to lose .

Not so much cost to TAB as made out to be,  T.M....after all, no stakes or trackside services to pay.

For the record I'm not agin AW tracks at all.  Think it would be great to have a few,  but not as a last-ditch survival strategy. They should be a valued part of  well-run training and racing regimes, but not  a last throw at the stumps.

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2 minutes ago, tasman man 11 said:

If these synthetic tracks seen as a disaster , why are so many prominent trainers supporting them ?

This includes MPitman in South , plus several top Awapuni and Waikato trainers.

They are positioned in the 3 x areas where our horse populations are and these areas are where a majority of our races will be held.

In recent seasons NZ has had 9 to 13 meetings cancelled , and well over 100 races.....at great cost to the TAB.

 

The ship is sinking ,its time for a change ......lets embrace he change and get on with it.

I think we got little to lose .

I think trainers with large numbers in training with possibility of constant awt racing on doorstep might have some self interest in it , if it's a good spend of money might need independent experts , not views from people with their handout for free cash .

AWT used by best in business , Gosden and the like , but is it a wise spend of that kind of money from a potless industry . This is the last chance saloon for NZ racing .

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4 minutes ago, tasman man 11 said:

If these synthetic tracks seen as a disaster , why are so many prominent trainers supporting them ?

This includes MPitman in South , plus several top Awapuni and Waikato trainers.

They are positioned in the 3 x areas where our horse populations are and these areas are where a majority of our races will be held.

In recent seasons NZ has had 9 to 13 meetings cancelled , and well over 100 races.....at great cost to the TAB.

 

The ship is sinking ,its time for a change ......lets embrace he change and get on with it.

I think we got little to lose .

I can't answer for those trainers and their reasons but i honestly want it to work for racing , but i wont be holding my breath , i just don't believe that they are the answer for NZ racing . We'll see if the named trainers continue to race on these surfaces if the aforementioned issues arise .

As for the number of lost meetings , well some are always going to happen when weather is involved and should have been mitigated for by the TAB , rest assured we will lose A/W meetings if we get enough rain in a short period , i've trained at tracks where with enough rain you can't see the tracks and can't work horses for a few days , it's the nature of weather . And remember these tracks were only talked about after 1 bad season , perhaps someone can tell us when we had even remotely close to that number of abandonments in a season in recent memory because i can't .

I agree about time for a change but i can't see a lot of upside with A/W tracks from a horse welfare and the gambling dollar perspective . Sometimes changes aren't always the best changes .

Again , i hope i get to say i'm wrong .

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1 hour ago, tasman man 11 said:

If these synthetic tracks seen as a disaster , why are so many prominent trainers supporting them ?

This includes MPitman in South , plus several top Awapuni and Waikato trainers.

They are positioned in the 3 x areas where our horse populations are and these areas are where a majority of our races will be held.

In recent seasons NZ has had 9 to 13 meetings cancelled , and well over 100 races.....at great cost to the TAB.

 

The ship is sinking ,its time for a change ......lets embrace he change and get on with it.

I think we got little to lose .

I think these tracks will largely be used for training and trials rather than race meetings, and they aren't costing those trainers anything so I'm sure they don't think they will do any harm. Why look a gift horse in the mouth. If you asked Mr Pitman whether he would rather $13m went into an all weather track for trials or whether he would prefer an extra four $500,000 races at Riccarton each year his answer might be interesting. If you asked the public whether they would rather have an all weather track or a public grandstand to shelter in and be able to view the races from, their answer might be interesting.

And remember a lot of our abandoned meetings occur during the summer time on slippery tracks. If Wingatui gets abandoned after race one when a horse falls over I suppose the public announcement will go something like "Right, we're done here. Everyone get in their trucks we will finish this meeting at Riccarton, next race in five hours."

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2 hours ago, nomates said:

That depends on your situation in racing , i know plenty who have everything to lose .

Like who ?

I interested as breeders sell mainly overseas while many top participants too head off shore.

More Aussies currently bet on NZ races than Kiwis.

So who would be the losers ?

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2 minutes ago, tasman man 11 said:

Like who ?

I interested as breeders sell mainly overseas while many top participants too head off shore.

More Aussies currently bet on NZ races than Kiwis.

So who would be the losers ?

There are a lot more underneath the top breeders and the trainers with the profile to make the move . There are a lot of people who don't carry a big profile but have a lot invested in breeding and racing . Lively hoods even . A lot rests on the decision makers getting it right .

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1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

I think these tracks will largely be used for training and trials rather than race meetings, and they aren't costing those trainers anything so I'm sure they don't think they will do any harm. Why look a gift horse in the mouth. If you asked Mr Pitman whether he would rather $13m went into an all weather track for trials or whether he would prefer an extra four $500,000 races at Riccarton each year his answer might be interesting. If you asked the public whether they would rather have an all weather track or a public grandstand to shelter in and be able to view the races from, their answer might be interesting.

And remember a lot of our abandoned meetings occur during the summer time on slippery tracks. If Wingatui gets abandoned after race one when a horse falls over I suppose the public announcement will go something like "Right, we're done here. Everyone get in their trucks we will finish this meeting at Riccarton, next race in five hours."

WD ,you usually have the FACTs , stats and numbers to back up your comments.

According to the Annual reports I glanced thru on my money trail , the abandoned meetings that seemed to hurt the most were at times other than summer.

These abandoned meetings received prominence in the NZRB report...one year they placed $2.3 mil lost net profit while NZTR in 2017 gave them considerable space in report.

The cost to the industry overall must be considerate in staffing and set up costs especially to the affected club.

There are also the associated intangible costs.....I'm sure few noticed but myself and a few associates in total frustration after a run of poor weather decided to move our interest in ownership from mainly gallops to Harness where tracks more constant .

Dunno if Wingatui been abandoned after race 1 but I know I been at Waikouaiti when that happened , while drove to Tapanui one day for no races and Te Awamutu also.

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35 minutes ago, tasman man 11 said:

More Aussies currently bet on NZ races than Kiwis.

I find that interesting and although its a different code i looked at $ placed on a few greyhound races a few days back. Tabcorp alone were doing between 6-8K a race and that did not include F/O

 

Greg

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8 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

I find that interesting and although its a different code i looked at $ placed on a few greyhound races a few days back. Tabcorp alone were doing between 6-8K a race and that did not include F/O

 

Greg

That would include kiwis betting through TABCORP accounts wouldn't it?

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7 hours ago, scooby3051 said:

Nobody wants the AW tracks its another dinosaur...you wait till horses start breaking down left right and centre...and they will I have seen first hand what happens on these BS tracks....They should have gone with Strathayr and had world class tracks that punters love...but no they went the dumb way as normal.

 

Leigh, Could you tell me who “they” are?

Someone or more made a decision. To get to the point of selling this to three clubs suggests buy in from “reasonably educated people”

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Phillipe said:

Leigh, Could you tell me who “they” are?

Someone or more made a decision. To get to the point of selling this to three clubs suggests buy in from “reasonably educated people” 

 

 

Who are the “reasonably educated people”  you refer to?

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I guess many of us are gun shy given the history of poor decisions and the lack of inclusiveness and transparency.

My own investigations tell me this may not be the right path, but what I find incredible the 26mil investment possibly could have been spent elsewhere in these troubled times. Put another way will this investment save racing and present a return - I don't know, I am lost by it all as I can't rationalise it

 

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6 minutes ago, TurnyTom said:

I guess many of us are gun shy given the history of poor decisions and the lack of inclusiveness and transparency.

My own investigations tell me this may not be the right path, but what I find incredible the 26mil investment possibly could have been spent elsewhere in these troubled times. Put another way will this investment save racing and present a return - I don't know, I am lost by it all as I can't rationalise it

 

The $26m is not an investment. It is paying currently due liabilities.

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You guys are missing getting side tracked. If we're being offered All Weather tracks as a grant, bring it on. Thank you Shane and Winston for giving us them at no cost. Will it fix the underlying problem that we are facing?....no....definitely not. Winston states that 32 race meetings were cancelled so the all weather tracks will change that. If that is what some one has said then that person needs to leave the room. Most of the issues with tracks have been associated with unsafe surfaces on tracks that were no winter meetings. Most of them were because irrigation/ soil preparation/ grass choice,  fertilizer choice and grass management have been done very poorly prior to natural irrigation....rain. So that 32 races becomes considerably less.

Then the AW tracks....Cambridge. Maximum 14 runners with a 300m straight.....really? If I had an AW track, let it have 20 runners, big wide galloping track with a 600m track. Then horses with bad barrier draws aren't automatically placed at a disadvantage and horses aren't screaming around the turn accelerating. That's where accidents happen and horses get injured. But alas....no one is thinking....yet again.

Our underlying issue is the betting, the ability to bet on everything, the way betting is conducted, the way the event is displayed, the cost of putting on the show, and finally the returns to the industry. You could put sports into that camp but for the purposes of this post I'm being selfish and leaving them out.

These are the real issues. It's obvious the FOB was put together for the sports industry. We didn't really need it but sports did. Sports want 23% of the Net Betting Revenue (NBR) which is the amount bet less the amount paid to winners and the duty to be paid in the form of dividends. They don't want a model where they have to pay for the costs. Don't you people see that we've lost the rudder and someone else is steering the boat!! The Covid couldn't have come along at a better time for the program.

You can't change what's gong to happen. It's what you call a lay down mazair.

I'm glad we've been bailed out but I'm fearful of what's next. Guys like me stand no chance at influencing change because guys like me don't get to places where proper decision making happens.

Saville, Henry and Kydd all need to go. They've all shown in the past 3-44 years that they are not capable of steering the ship in the right direction. They don't understand the problems or the issues correctly and don't have the right skill sets. Trouble that RITA has is they don't know what a good person looks like and who do you get to be that good person. I know the technology person but getting a rocket ship betting guy to NZ is a biiger ask unless you paid him heaps. Problem with that is that everyone would jump up and down.

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10 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Who are the “reasonably educated people”  you refer to?

It would be difficult to believe that three clubs of different Directors, made a decision to agree to proceed in the absence of consultation with their trainers, some of who train for the said directors.

While some directors can be assumed to be less than educated, surely not all are in that category?

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4 minutes ago, Leggy said:

The $26m is not an investment. It is paying currently due liabilities.

Same 26mil figure for the 3 tracks, agree the same number 26mil was for creditors who apparently were issuing a S218 on Friday

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