RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
john legend

$7000 races are we all mad ?

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 In all honesty clubs and a system that expect harness racing to have a future with such small stakes are "dreamin Jonesy" the win barely covers 2 months training fees and reduces us to a   level where profitability is almost an impossibility. The overheads of the industry with its mismanagement are too high to sustain the situation.. The owners and trainers cannot sustain losses as exit owners then exit trainers (and drivers) The TAB,RIU,Racing nz,.hrnz. and uncle tom cobbley sic  etc all grab too big a piece of the pie and clubs are expected to pay higher stakes when they too struggle. The social aspect  was always trotted out but nowdays no question. it cuts no ice as us owners cannot subsidise overheads with very little chance of a profit. No wonder less than 2000 foals are born each year.

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Whilst $7000 are not great, they are not the problem. They'd be fine if the handicapping system accounted for them at their true value instead of treating them the same as a $20k race. I'd happily win 3 races against relatively similar opposition each time if I only took the same total penalty as the guy that won a $20k race somewhere else.

The total pool for stakemoney is relatively static, so dividing it up more equitably will solve a lot more problems than feeding the fat cats at the top end of the food chain.

It's very apparent from the seemly bottomless pockets of those buying in the elite yearling market, the same market where a disproportionate amount of stakemoney is going - that to them the handicapping system is irrelevant. When all you compete in are age group features and open class races you don't care what rating your horse is, or what $7k scraps the peasants are fighting over!

 

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12 minutes ago, Flawed Genius said:

Whilst $7000 are not great, they are not the problem. They'd be fine if the handicapping system accounted for them at their true value instead of treating them the same as a $20k race. I'd happily win 3 races against relatively similar opposition each time if I only took the same total penalty as the guy that won a $20k race somewhere else.

The total pool for stakemoney is relatively static, so dividing it up more equitably will solve a lot more problems than feeding the fat cats at the top end of the food chain.

It's very apparent from the seemly bottomless pockets of those buying in the elite yearling market, the same market where a disproportionate amount of stakemoney is going - that to them the handicapping system is irrelevant. When all you compete in are age group features and open class races you don't care what rating your horse is, or what $7k scraps the peasants are fighting over!

 

Pretty much sums it up......but racing still needs the 'carrot' of the big Cups ,Derbies and Oaks races while the Sales series and Sweepstakes races are largely self-funded.

Aussies still prepared to pay good money for a talented horse !...so I hear !

The handicapping and rating system sure needs an overhaul.

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there are 2 types of owners that's for real. but for there to be an industry providing horses 3 or 4 times a week year round there needs to be both. The 100 or even 200000 yearling trained by all stars or Dunns are but 1 end  and good luck to them its the other end where I live I am worried about

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23 hours ago, Flawed Genius said:

Whilst $7000 are not great, they are not the problem. They'd be fine if the handicapping system accounted for them at their true value instead of treating them the same as a $20k race. I'd happily win 3 races against relatively similar opposition each time if I only took the same total penalty as the guy that won a $20k race somewhere else.

 

 

I agree.  The fact is, out of the USA,  Canada, Aussie & New Zealand,  we have by far the highest minimum stakes.

I believe we should run lower class races,  say rating 40 -47 for $5,000 and put the money saved into rating 48 and above races.  Races with a stake under $7,000 should attract a rating re accessment of only 2 points allowing for horses to remain competitive longer in that grade..

I know people are going to say it will drive owners from the game but  all horses would start off racing for more money and only get into lower stakes races when they prove uncompetitive in races rated 48 & above.

The real question though that needs to be addressed is how to increase revenues into the industry, particularly around betting, so that  increased funds are available for all class of horses to race for more money.

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Why not try running mile races with smaller fields and $5000 stake, the horses race weekly then and we are short of horses running now. 2600 gut busters at Addington takes two weeks before you return and you need to run a place twice just to break even with the bills in a month, Do the people in charge really know what is going on, I think not, this is a costly sport for the owner and breeder. I have two very well bred foals not even broken in yet, one by Hes Watching and they might as well be hacks,  another owner breeder with very little hope for the future, by the way, both foals are stunners. 

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all good suggestions but lets not lose sight of the huge overheads  which are removed from the industry runs to 100s of millions each year that could be available for stakes but are "siphoned off " by inefficiency each year. Moving ratings and dollars around will not fix the problem unfortunately.

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and for those that may wish to argue, I am happy to elaborate on my background. Have been owner since 1969 on various club committees been a club treasurer, a club Secretary and  a Club Manager. I have both bred mares and raced and sold horses overseas. Harness Racing has been a lifelong passion but I am very concerned re. the future.

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43 minutes ago, john legend said:

all good suggestions but lets not lose sight of the huge overheads  which are removed from the industry runs to 100s of millions each year that could be available for stakes but are "siphoned off " by inefficiency each year. Moving ratings and dollars around will not fix the problem unfortunately.

Well put and you hit the nail on the head, but, what are the changes needed. Owners of lesser horses are going down faster than Mums pants on fathers day

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4 minutes ago, john legend said:

and for those that may wish to argue, I am happy to elaborate on my background. Have been owner since 1969 on various club committees been a club treasurer, a club Secretary and  a Club Manager. I have both bred mares and raced and sold horses overseas. Harness Racing has been a lifelong passion but I am very concerned re. the future.

Well done.....thinking back 50 years did your club do anything to future proof the sport/industry ?

Looking around the country I can't see too many that did....some did and failed e.g. Avondale RC who tried night racing and ATC who went for Apartment building.Addington developed into a great facility then got Earthquakes .

Ellerslie is a fantastic facility , yes it stages the biggest races on the best dates ,but they have investments of $40mil and equity of $140mil .........oddly still holds some $10 races at times and the track was definitely substandard for years.

Sure there are some great country clubs.......over Christmas I saw article on Central Otago / Omakau track still run brilliantly by locals....volunteers.

But there has been a lost generation in NZ racing.......too much else to do and drop off of volunteers.

Several areas e.g. Wingatui was once a huge training centre...Taranaki too.

But overall money was never ploughed back into infrastructure .....tracks and facilities. 

It was ploughed into running our impressive TAB and Trackside TV coverage.......now TAB salaries and admin costs continue to close in on what is paid to the clubs for stakes and facilities upkeep.

Interesting Avondale which has good level of equity is a good example of 'what the hell happened'. Good track but possibly worst grandstand structure in world and has lost all Saturday dates even for iconic races . Doesn't appear to work in with neighbours and even Members have court cases v Club ! I heard a submission pleads we go back to the $1 each way punter who walks round with Best Bets in pocket .....Avondale makes $900,000 pa from non racing activities !

I too did some work with clubs 40 years ago when volunteers ran the place .....#1 trainer in area was track manager etc .

Sadly the world has moved on....Us racing types haven't....

Love of Lotto easier than racing , less time to waste , and we always blame the other guys ! Tastes got more sophisticated.

Meanwhile the suits came in and paid massive salaries and H & S took over ...........

Phew...what a rave.

I see the Horse doping case from USA has made the sports news.......everyone is out to get us in NZ!

At least us tragics can still race horses  and bet in Australia and Singapore etc where costs/rewards are more equitable !
 

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A lot of trainers are to protective of there horses and owners and will go trials and workouts instead of races Incase they run down the track . A lot of the time owners just want to see their  horse race win lose or draw its an event for them trainers no willing to line up horses more regularly are costing the owners a chance to enjoy racing 

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3 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

Well done.....thinking back 50 years did your club do anything to future proof the sport/industry ?

Looking forward to reading an indepth answer to this... 

Not having a go at anyone, just genuinely interested, as it is an excellent question. 

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Each individual club can do very little against the massive beauracracy that has grown around the "racing product" as the accountants like to call it.The club did attempt to future proof itself by looking to become an economic entity. and introduced innovations at the time of free  entry to all meetings ,got approval for the first passing lane , cut raceday staff by 75% introduced a trainer bonus scheme (6 wins =75000 ) cut free dinners from paid staff and then (shock) from committee members as well. it was still not enough so sold secretary's car and rented out house that was part of sec package.We limited sponsors freebies (where poss) and the presidents "bar".We looked to HRNZ and Nz Racing Authority for assistance and got nowhere. We even tried concerts after last race and invited visiting national sports teams to hhelp us out. I could go on but I think you may see the club tried desperate measures to "future proof"the industry .After putting in 18hour days at times eventually I personally could see still no way for economic survival (even cancelling racemeetings at bad times of year.)My last chance was to attent AGM of HRNZ to plead our case.and got nowhere. So Rusty hope you stop proding the bear unless you have all the answers and can reply. 

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Some small immediate problems the ATC have (or may have)

Completion of apartment blocks with commercial complex - no doubt additional parking will be required

Imminent announcement by Minister of Education re the area the club sold them and have had rights of use up until now.

Projected sale of Caltex/Burger King sites Manakau Road.

Blues already been provided by club with their building corner Campbell Crescent.

 

The club did assure members a few years ago when all this "think big" project commenced there would be ample car parking at Alexandra Park.     These days the members have to park wherever they can find a spot - sure the construction is taking up a lot of area but when the Restaurants and cafes open these establishments will require quite a lot of parking space.      Then there is the problem of race night parking for horse transporters.    At the present they use an area which I believe is either all or a goodly part of the Education Dept land and if (which highly likely) the government give the immediate go ahead for a new school project, the club is likely to have a big problem here.     All the club seem to have offered is "silence" or "everything will be right on the night".     

 

There are many problems facing the harness industy if the city of cones.

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On 3/11/2020 at 1:50 PM, john legend said:

Each individual club can do very little against the massive beauracracy that has grown around the "racing product" as the accountants like to call it.The club did attempt to future proof itself by looking to become an economic entity. and introduced innovations at the time of free  entry to all meetings ,got approval for the first passing lane , cut raceday staff by 75% introduced a trainer bonus scheme (6 wins =75000 ) cut free dinners from paid staff and then (shock) from committee members as well. it was still not enough so sold secretary's car and rented out house that was part of sec package.We limited sponsors freebies (where poss) and the presidents "bar".We looked to HRNZ and Nz Racing Authority for assistance and got nowhere. We even tried concerts after last race and invited visiting national sports teams to hhelp us out. I could go on but I think you may see the club tried desperate measures to "future proof"the industry .After putting in 18hour days at times eventually I personally could see still no way for economic survival (even cancelling racemeetings at bad times of year.)My last chance was to attent AGM of HRNZ to plead our case.and got nowhere. So Rusty hope you stop proding the bear unless you have all the answers and can reply. 

Which club was this?

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Cardigan Bay broke the mile record there and it was resurveyed and was done again when passing lane introduced at some cost all legitimate. In fact Sir Roy Mckenzie . wanted us to add a shute to accommodate flying miles ,but due to cost and perhaps a bit too innovative for the time. (could have worked).!00 years of history thrown away by the industry. IMHO a disgrace for the Capital of NZ to have no harness racing The Plan was for a mega track on the Kapiti Coast inc the 3 codes which if built in the 1990s would have been tremendous and within budget The cost now would be exhorbitant. Idiots have been running the show for many years with no forward planning other than closing courses which they don't own.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rcf-injured:

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