Charlie Bukowski

Do we need a 2 Tier System of Thoroughbred Racing

55 posts in this topic

On 2/20/2020 at 10:32 AM, uneasy said:

I agree with p4p slightly but you would have to implement some sort of class or weight penalty maybe limit the amount of starts in a 12 month period as some horses may just keep going back to the penalty free race days. I know I would with the right horses. I didn't think there was much wrong with the old graduation opens-we had great success with older horses and 4kg claimers

The Graduation Opens were a great system,  worked very well.   

Agree here,  there would need to be some sort of penalty [ weight ? ]  otherwise a certain sort of horse would just keep turning up for easy money.

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1 hour ago, Pam Robson said:

The Graduation Opens were a great system,  worked very well.   

Agree here,  there would need to be some sort of penalty [ weight ? ]  otherwise a certain sort of horse would just keep turning up for easy money.

Well at the moment horses are driven from the industry because the handicapping system is set up to punish winners and consistent horses, you’d get far more value from your horse assets if you maximize their longevity and the owners involvement 

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On 2/20/2020 at 9:53 AM, poundforpound said:

Yes, no ratings penalty and no class change... just trials for $3000 a time really, at set weights, with stipes, gambling and Trackside

Don't forget the past to look to the future.Trials used to be because you used to have to win or get placed at trials before getting into the races. Entry into the races was that competitive!!! Now we have a lack of race numbers problem. PFP's suggestion is interesting. A simple way to increase betting churn and allowing owners access to trying to earn something with a horse with limited ability. We will still have the same problem in normal races though as we have too few potential runners. 

I see one of the undiscussed topics being that there are suggestions that racecourses close but that race dates don't decrease. If you don't decrease the race dates, and you have a continued decrease in horse numbers, then where are you still going to find the race numbers? Take the recent Te Rapa meeting. The $400,000 race had 10 runners but that is OK for a WFA Championship race, although to be fair, that was a listed/ Gp 3 at best in the UK. But it was the other races that were concerning.....5 races with seven or less runners. Now that is a disaster.

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On 2/22/2020 at 4:09 PM, poundforpound said:

Well at the moment horses are driven from the industry because the handicapping system is set up to punish winners and consistent horses, you’d get far more value from your horse assets if you maximize their longevity and the owners involvement 

Numerous horses get more rating points for placing 2nd or 3rd than the winner especially if said winner starts off rated a lot higher b4 race ..... effectively a penalty free race for the winner and bigger penalty for the placers , but no one knows what they can expect going in to that race, a closer correlation between stakes and penalties would say that 3k penalty free races is about right but melody belle winning G1 races penalty free is wrong.

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5 hours ago, Nukkledragga said:

Numerous horses get more rating points for placing 2nd or 3rd than the winner especially if said winner starts off rated a lot higher b4 race ..... effectively a penalty free race for the winner and bigger penalty for the placers , but no one knows what they can expect going in to that race, a closer correlation between stakes and penalties would say that 3k penalty free races is about right but melody belle winning G1 races penalty free is wrong.

Melody Belle not getting a penalty for winning a G1 is absolutely fine “if” she’s only running up to the mark she’s already on, arguably she could win a G1 in NZ and be rated downward 

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2 hours ago, poundforpound said:

Melody Belle not getting a penalty for winning a G1 is absolutely fine “if” she’s only running up to the mark she’s already on, arguably she could win a G1 in NZ and be rated downward 

The real problem with MB winning penalty free is that the points differential SHRINKS  between MB and the beaten brigade and when those horses revert back to hcp racing they have no show.While there must be some penalty , giving more points to 2nd or 3rd place runners is wrong, not knowing the likely points/ max points b4 the race is wrong.

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Turny Tom talks about the two tier racing between the North and The South.

I note that they have a $35,000 open handicap at Wingatui where seven of the entrants are rated at 87 or better.

They have a $50,000 open handicap at Ellerslie where the highest rated entrant is on 83!!!

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5 hours ago, Tauhei Notts said:

I looked further.

They put up $22,500 for a R65 race at Wingatui and got 26 entries.

Ellerslie put up $50,000 for a R65 race and guess how many entries they got?

Try. 

Get this.

Seven!

And two of those seven nominated for two races, so possibly only five starters. Of course I'm sure some other trainers who had no intention of starting will see such a pathetic field and decide they might as well line up.

It does show that the stake has only a minimal effect on the size and quality of the field. Imagine what a $50,000 rating 65 1,400m would attract in the South.

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6 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

And two of those seven nominated for two races, so possibly only five starters. Of course I'm sure some other trainers who had no intention of starting will see such a pathetic field and decide they might as well line up.

It does show that the stake has only a minimal effect on the size and quality of the field. Imagine what a $50,000 rating 65 1,400m would attract in the South.

And one is a 22 start 6yo mdn!

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10 minutes ago, Huey said:

Managing decline is working particularly well. 4 horses initially  nominated for a mdn 1200 at Awapuni, now there is 12.

David Hayes got a runner in , cannot be the David Hayes . It is OZ bred , by Patinack Farm ( they let rip and fizzled like a firework on a rainy night ) . 7 year old maiden mare . Maybe Hayes has given her time , heading to Spring Melbourne .

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Interesting that they ended up with 12 for the race with 7 noms, so they came out of the woodwork. But the 65 1,600m ended up with only 8 acceptors; compared with Wingatui where 12 horses were balloted and eliminated in the 65 1,600m. 

Interesting too that the two open races at Wingatui both ended up with 8 horses rated 80 or higher and top weights at 96 and 94. Compared to the Nathans with two over 80 and a top weight of 83. Even the rating 82 stayers at Wingatui did better than that with three over 80 and a top rating of 84. So does that mean SI horses are really good, or unfairly treated in the handicaps? Serious question.

Even the fillies races are interesting. Smallish field at Ellerslie; three over 70 and a top rating of 75. Capacity field at Wingatui; four over 70 and a top rating of 78. How exactly can the Auckland race be group 3 and Wingatui only listed?

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1 hour ago, Tauhei Notts said:

We're Doomed.  What a fascinating study in how badly treated the South Island horses are in the ratings system.

A win a Wyndham or Reefton is the same as a win at Trentham or Ellerslie according to the morons in PETONE ......a sad joke really 

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4 hours ago, poundforpound said:

A win a Wyndham or Reefton is the same as a win at Trentham or Ellerslie according to the morons in PETONE ......a sad joke really 

A win in the South Island is always betterer than a win in the non-Mainland

Sux- Suxty...........Don't forget your roots

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7 minutes ago, Cubes said:

A win in the South Island is always betterer than a win in the non-Mainland

Sux- Suxty...........Don't forget your roots

We are getting to the stage where SI racing is much more attractive than many northern meetings, especially the CD. Lots of small fields this week at Hastings and Manawatu. I just hope Otago makes some effort this weekend to attract the public to Wingatui. I suspect these days the clubs don't make much effort given the funding model.

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20 minutes ago, Cubes said:

A win in the South Island is always betterer than a win in the non-Mainland

Sux- Suxty...........Don't forget your roots

He's had so many roots you could hardly expect him to remember many of them Cubes.

 

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Thats why more and more better performed South Island horses are going overseas. In recent times we have sold Chuck A Luck, Savvy Lad, Cadman,  Czechoslovakia and another 3 year old being vetted this morning. 

But Patrick Erin has returned

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