tim vince

Nui ba den

40 posts in this topic

Wins 3 shit races in a row I understand will be retired.up 24points for winning 13k ish.our silly handicapping system makes him totally uncompetitive. Shame but those who run the show don't get it.win a 25k race same money get 8 points.takes forever and a lot of money till he becomes competitive.

Like me winning 3 games of pool and have to play Jimmy white .

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i agree with you to a certain degree Tim. The handicapping system would work a lot better if Clubs programmed races for horses within a much tighter range of ratings. This may not be the fault of the clubs entirely as , particularly in the North where the numbers of horses available to race is limited. Clubs should utilise the flexibility within the system to programme races for horses within a range of stakes won, e.g. for horses that have won no more than 2 races with a maximum of $25,000 in stakes. Guidance should be given by the handicapper to facilitate races within the range of horses available to race in the clubs vicinity. I am sure the HRNZ computer system could provide data to support this aproach 

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19 minutes ago, Stables said:

The handicapping system would work a lot better if Clubs programmed races for horses within a much tighter range of ratings

Correct ,but as you go on to say the lack of horses in north prevents this.Horses race up North against vastly superior opposition where no chance of winning at all.

Not like v like.

As for the topic horse...Nui Ba Den.

What a great drive by Sheryl Wigg ,and a long way to go to take part ,from Kumeu to Geraldine ,I'd say most Aucklanders never been to Geraldine.

Plus she trekked to Addington last week and also won Amateurs on same horse !

Thats tenacity and dedication to the Industry.

Horse people that I know work so bloody hard ,so its great when they achieve.

Also Michael House.....supported Manawatu to the hilt ,got good results incl 3 x winners, won one at Addington also then the Amateurs at Geraldine.

Well done.....may there be many more !

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18 hours ago, Stables said:

i agree with you to a certain degree Tim. The handicapping system would work a lot better if Clubs programmed races for horses within a much tighter range of ratings. This may not be the fault of the clubs entirely as , particularly in the North where the numbers of horses available to race is limited. Clubs should utilise the flexibility within the system to programme races for horses within a range of stakes won, e.g. for horses that have won no more than 2 races with a maximum of $25,000 in stakes. Guidance should be given by the handicapper to facilitate races within the range of horses available to race in the clubs vicinity. I am sure the HRNZ computer system could provide data to support this aproach 

The Handicapping system would be better if they had never changed to a Rating system

The old Class system would have worked well if Clubs and the Handicapper (only 1 back then) had used the possible permutations that it afforded

Let’s take 2 horses as an example. Both have won 3 races in a row. One has won 3 $25000 races and the other 3 $8000 races

Ckubs running lower class meetings could have a “C3 race for horses with <  $ 16000 in winning stake” to differentiate between these 2 examples 

Clubs could also have run “C3 but limited to horses that have not won in their last 6 starts”, another example

The ability to individualise conditions was endless

It was simple, there were and are printouts available with all sorts of details making it easy to programme races knowing who could get in and who couldn’t

Yrs, the old system needed alterations to Age wins and to the Drop-back provision but that could have been achieved

This system is a mish mash of rubbish, and it’s not just the suits to be blamed, there are horsemen on the Handicapping Sub/Committee who pushed this stupid system through and who continue to tinker with it regularly 

Mikie

 

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When the old system was in the clubs never used the discretions they had.     A PBD is basically a way of looking after your friends :rcfe-happy-2:    It's really a rock & hard place situation.     If you had a nice promising horse you didn't want it to race against the old gnarly buggers and if you had an old gnarly bugger you wanted it to race against green inexperienced types not against promising intermediates.    It's the old scenario - whatever your situation you want whats best for you.    There will never be a solution that will satisfy everyone. 

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But to improve if only slightly the problem, the start has to be horse numbers and those in command should be, but it appears don't give a damn, to address this urgently or stand down and let someone who has the industry at heart  get the problem moving.      Of course we all know that this is a 'barn door" problem but any moves in the right direction can only benefit.    

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1 hour ago, eljay said:

When the old system was in the clubs never used the discretions they had.     

I’m pretty sure that this is what I said in my post

 

1 hour ago, eljay said:

.    It's the old scenario - whatever your situation you want whats best for you.    There will never be a solution that will satisfy everyone. 

I’m also sure I started a thread saying exactly this as well

 

Let’s go back to the Class system and use Programming to cater for  the horse population and the variance in stakes

Aucklands lack of horses cannot bd fixed by Handicapping and programming only, I’m not claiming that it can be

Edited by Mikie
Soelling

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Tim the current system seems so stupid. Nui Ba Den and your trotter, that won a recent race and gained another win due to a relegation, are now basically finished. Are the suits running this industry morons? Surely they're not as clueless as the current systems suggests.Perhaps they have an agenda that we haven't worked out? Or did Phil Twyford come up with it?

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1 hour ago, frankie said:

Tim the current system seems so stupid. Nui Ba Den and your trotter, that won a recent race and gained another win due to a relegation, are now basically finished. Are the suits running this industry morons? Surely they're not as clueless as the current systems suggests.Perhaps they have an agenda that we haven't worked out? Or did Phil Twyford come up with it?

I’m not defending the suits entirely, but some Trainers (particularly a Canterbury one) on the Handicapping Sub-Committee , and some Club Secretaries, must accept an equal part of the blame for this debacle

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Right from the initial "consultation" meetings there were some of us NI owners voicing concerns as to the probable impacts of the rating system - which fell on deaf ears.  Apparently HRNZ didn't even do a modelling exercise using the wealth of data available on Infohorse to compare different options. I suspect most of the decision makers have no idea what computer modelling is and how powerful and useful it could have been and could be in designing a handicapping system for what ever the target they wanted. What they have is a system that favours old R40 -R50 horses that have had 50+ starts and erratic horses (e.g. if a horse alternatively breaks and get 2nds it goes down in ratings but one that gets 4ths and 5ths stays the same even though earning far less). What owners want is a system that gives all sound racehorses a realistic chance of a long racing career in NZ and that the earnings do cover  a good % of costs. With a shrinking pool of horses, this will only be possible if more use is made of conditions (which should be transparent and not done to favour mates).

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Have u the stats that it helps old 40  50 horses.dont think so.ive got enough to tell u that is wrong.if u want longevity what do you propose.old sportsman are competitive if they play each other.look at golf great players not competitive  on pga so get grouped on seniors tour.

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Interestingly he won a rating 40-69 race so can run against same horses once more most likely, probably best to sell him to Aussie , will get longevity  there.

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On 2/1/2020 at 6:02 PM, tim vince said:

Owner rang me one minute ago.he said nz has the  most un intelligent handicapping system in world.aussie owns with American guy..hhe said how  do trainers get owners.

Andrew Morris is the HRNZ handicapper Tim...what did you expect.....?? :rolleyes:

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21 minutes ago, Ohokaman said:

Andrew Morris is the HRNZ handicapper Tim...what did you expect.....?? :rolleyes:

Andrew Morris is but one member of the Handicapping Sub-Committee and, from what I hear, hasn’t got the votes to do much damage 

21 minutes ago, Ohokaman said:

Andrew Morris is the HRNZ handicapper Tim...what did you expect.....?? :rolleyes:

I saved your quote twice, so now I’m lumbered with adding something

The Chairman of the Handicapping Sub-Cimmittee that pushed through this Ratings system is more to blame

i think he still may be Chairman, I haven’t checked. With backing from 2 South Island Secretaries who just don’t want to rock the boat he is responsible not only for the system, but the ongoing tinkering

I ask you this, if you purchased a new car would you be happy if you had to take it back to the Dealer every 2nd month for modifications?

Mikie

 

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I realise its kind of pointless posting/moaning on Social media about harness issues.....best to start writing to these guys ,including the CEO etc and let them know our feelings.

A relative newcomer to the North [from South] I think the South holds the power ,it certainly has the horse and trainer majority , and these guys don't give a stuff about the North situation.

It won't be easy to get horses North as owners in the North are dwindling.

Syndicators can't fill syndicates , great trainers can't get owners.....other than Australians......and other big players concentrating selling horses abroad.

If MHouse ,RDunn had not established Auckland stables in recent times and that enthusiastic battler ,Tim Vince got involved' Boots N All , six horse fields would be the norm well before today !

They basically masked the problem thru last winter .

With BPurdon having horses in Australia at present as well and no maiden trot which eliminates a field cos of age group races , they lucky to get a 7 race programme plus a 4 horse non tote.Another $20 k race got 3 noms and was scrapped.

its not the stakes ,its the lack of horses.....decimated by the handicapping system.

Good to see OK noms for 2 yr old filly  race......their race was scrapped at Addington last week cos only 3 x acceptances.

Buy a horse at Sales next week to chase good stakes !!!....haha......if the races not scrapped , or non totes for vastly reduced stakes !

IMO the North needs at least 20 horses ready to go to head North.

Trouble is Southern men won't part with their ponies.....someone may win a race with them OR they asking way too much for them. [SDickson confirmed this in recent interview]

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