arjay

Hawkes Bay fields

48 posts in this topic

There was a time,   when the major Canterbury club undertook not to run a programme that adversely affected an opposing club racing in a close proximity time-wise.

All well and good, and probably brought about by a spirit of fair play....but no help to stakeholders who face significant costs in transport and accommodation - not to mention extra staff in cases.

In this day and age, with costs running rampant and potential rewards so meagre,  not an acceptable state of affairs at all.

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Galloping trainers (many unbeknown to the owners) have a propensity to accept in three different meetings in a week which means their horses will be scratched at two at least so what looks ok fields the night before can be decimated by 7:30 on raceday or even during if they feel the ground is too hard or too soft or whatever. Poor form imho.

Doesn't happen that way in harness, even with grass track racing. If the weather changes drastically between acceptances and race day they generally still go to the post.

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1 hour ago, Pam Robson said:

There was a time,   when the major Canterbury club undertook not to run a programme that adversely affected an opposing club racing in a close proximity time-wise.

All well and good, and probably brought about by a spirit of fair play....but no help to stakeholders who face significant costs in transport and accommodation - not to mention extra staff in cases.

In this day and age, with costs running rampant and potential rewards so meagre,  not an acceptable state of affairs at all.

A hell of a lot of Canty maidens travelled to Wingatui last Thurs Pam; surely not an ideal option.

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2 hours ago, Patiti said:

Do the clubs just run the same programs year after year and take no notice of the needs of the owners.

 

OR

 

Are they directed by NZTR not to do more.

The blind leading the blind Patiti. And this is with presumably "racing" people running things. Imagine what it will be like when the industry is run by "independent" non racing people. Can't do any worse I suppose.

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11 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

A hell of a lot of Canty maidens travelled to Wingatui last Thurs Pam; surely not an ideal option.

Of course not.   The maiden running in the open hcp being a case in point.  

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4 hours ago, arjay said:

Cheers for that, was booked for my first ride in the cup of 66. Can remember going to the last meeting for gallops, so must have been 64

The gallops should have followed the trots lead. They held their "final" meeting at the Hororata track for 8 or 9 years, before finally leaving in the mid 80s.

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And with a sensible 'overview' of programming,  the scenario to which I referred shouldn't happen.

As I've mentioned before,  the two main regions down here,  Canterbury/Westland and Otago/Southland could stand alone, with separate pools of horses and riders and such clashes weren't such a problem. 

 But times and demographics change, without enlightened management changes to go hand in hand.  

Unfortunately. 

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2 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

Of course not.   The maiden running in the open hcp being a case in point.  

That maiden of course didn't even have the option of starting in the stayers maiden at Wingatui. Six ballots in that race, none of whom got a start, and another four eliminated.

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1 minute ago, Leggy said:

Programming has gone from poor to completely hopeless in the last 7 or 8 years in my opinion.

Are there still regional programming committees?

 

Ive no idea when, how and by whom programming is even done.

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7. Race Programming ProcessAs per Rule 508, NZTR approves race programmes in consultation with regional Club representatives in the following way.Programming meetings where race programmes are set occur in the Northern,Central and Southern regions every three months. At the respective meetings, programmes are set three months in advance for a three month period. Those who attend meetings and assist in the programming process are:-

Regional Programming Chairman-

Club representatives-

NZ Trainers’ Association Representative/s-

NZTR representatives-

Racing Integrity Unit representative (optional

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4 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

It certainly needs more than the current piecemeal approach...but I wouldn't like to be tasked with the job.

Going back to the headpost, the problems are far more than just local anomalies. 

It's not really all that hard. Someone creative needs to come in and tidy things up, and the trainers need to buy into it and make sure they support clubs that put up the decent stakes. They were very poor fields at Riccarton last week. There needs to be a review to decide why that was and what can be done to prevent it happening next year. As it is, a lot of money is being wasted funding poorly performing premier meetings.

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8 hours ago, Leggy said:

7. Race Programming ProcessAs per Rule 508, NZTR approves race programmes in consultation with regional Club representatives in the following way.Programming meetings where race programmes are set occur in the Northern,Central and Southern regions every three months. At the respective meetings, programmes are set three months in advance for a three month period. Those who attend meetings and assist in the programming process are:-

Regional Programming Chairman-

Club representatives-

NZ Trainers’ Association Representative/s-

NZTR representatives-

Racing Integrity Unit representative (optional

I think that 3 months ahead gives little time to map out a horse's programme options - personally -  and I don't think I'd be the only one.

WRT to the recent situation mentioned by others,  there are four meetings at Ricc in little more than a month,  some only industry days, but then there is Champions Day at Dunedin and Southland Guineas day to work in around it all...not an easy fix IMO....and, as well,  summer in Canterbury is typically fiercely dry, many are looking to get their horses off concrete so travelling has to be factored in - or don't run anywhere.

Costs with public transport companies are huge for anyone trekking up and down the island as well.

Economics aside,  knowledge of local conditions used to be a factor in race dates,  up north of course too, not just down here.

The two West Coast circuits [ Nov and Jan ]  were a great opportunity to get your horses away from the heat and dust in Canterbury over that period,  Otago/Southland had its own circuits too,  that seems to have been forgotten with people complaining that 'there should be racing here over the holiday period'....well,  it happened like that for a reason.  Once autumn conditions kicked in,  then racing returned to local tracks.     Same thing re.climate happened down south, racing shut down in Southland after the Riverton Easter meeting, too close to Antarctica to be going racing..!

Some trainers moved to Oamaru, or Waimate [ Rex Cochrane]  with the teams they wished to keep going.

Dunedin Queen's Birthday was the last Otago meeting until the spring other than at Oamaru's excellent winter track...but the timing and general organisation worked.

Populations, economics, etc. all change and you can't go back in time - but we have definitely lost the connection to the pastoral reality that made it all work.

And I don't really have the answer going forward.

 

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19 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

It's not really all that hard. Someone creative needs to come in and tidy things up, and the trainers need to buy into it and make sure they support clubs that put up the decent stakes. They were very poor fields at Riccarton last week. There needs to be a review to decide why that was and what can be done to prevent it happening next year. As it is, a lot of money is being wasted funding poorly performing premier meetings.

You ,We're Doomed seem to have a very keen interest and good understanding of the various Calendar and programming issues which seems to dog the Industry.

You should document your concerns and ideas ,get some support from folk with a bit of weight/influence and make suggestions to this lot that makes the decisions.

You seem to have a grasp of the numbers ,%'s and glaring gaps where there is room for improvement.

Years ago some genius or person similar to yourself must have come up with the idea of the dual code meeting on Jan 2 at Tauherenikau....I guess they thought horses of either code could be short cos of holiday racing [probably gallopers] plus there are XX harness in the area , so lets have a dual meeting. Its a true holiday meeting ,very popular and seems successful.

It has always amazed me why there isn't more flexibility in the Calendar and programming and I wonder if there is a regular stocktake or inventory done of horses getting ready ,or already willing to race.....in their categories.

e.g. if a region gas 40 horses in r65 hoping to race over 1800m to 2400 and 30 sprinters ,then programs should reflect that.

Too often it seems horses are missing out on starts and or some races going ahead e.g. 72 or r82 with 4 to 6 starters.

It seems too obvious.

One probable roadblock to change or flexibility could be in the make-up of the "Committee"......my experience tells me that personal or conflict of interests comes into any decision making. Its rare to strike a committee without that being a big factor.Decisions made are often done to best suit  those making them. Human nature !

For starters a trainers rep and a club rep would definitely be looking after own back yard !

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38 minutes ago, tasman man 11 said:

You ,We're Doomed seem to have a very keen interest and good understanding of the various Calendar and programming issues which seems to dog the Industry.

You should document your concerns and ideas ,get some support from folk with a bit of weight/influence and make suggestions to this lot that makes the decisions.

You seem to have a grasp of the numbers ,%'s and glaring gaps where there is room for improvement.

Years ago some genius or person similar to yourself must have come up with the idea of the dual code meeting on Jan 2 at Tauherenikau....I guess they thought horses of either code could be short cos of holiday racing [probably gallopers] plus there are XX harness in the area , so lets have a dual meeting. Its a true holiday meeting ,very popular and seems successful.

It has always amazed me why there isn't more flexibility in the Calendar and programming and I wonder if there is a regular stocktake or inventory done of horses getting ready ,or already willing to race.....in their categories.

e.g. if a region gas 40 horses in r65 hoping to race over 1800m to 2400 and 30 sprinters ,then programs should reflect that.

Too often it seems horses are missing out on starts and or some races going ahead e.g. 72 or r82 with 4 to 6 starters.

It seems too obvious.

One probable roadblock to change or flexibility could be in the make-up of the "Committee"......my experience tells me that personal or conflict of interests comes into any decision making. Its rare to strike a committee without that being a big factor.Decisions made are often done to best suit  those making them. Human nature !

For starters a trainers rep and a club rep would definitely be looking after own back yard !

Why don't they have an option in the trainers centre menu where trainer can give their opinion/vote on what races they are looking for their horses in the future or where they are heading etc.Surely that isn't hard to do, instead its like you have said a few trainers pushing for what they need and the industry hoping pie in the sky thats going to be good enough.

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2 hours ago, Huey said:

Why don't they have an option in the trainers centre menu where trainer can give their opinion/vote on what races they are looking for their horses in the future or where they are heading etc.Surely that isn't hard to do, instead its like you have said a few trainers pushing for what they need and the industry hoping pie in the sky thats going to be good enough.

I've made this same point several times,  a database with the numbers and grades of horses in the districts shouldn't be that complicated,  surely?

Then races could be worked around horse availability. 

Leggy will correct me, but I think as long ago as when Balmerino was campaigning abroad, he took part in an 'overnight'  handicap in the US which reflected exactly that practice .

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10 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

I've made this same point several times,  a database with the numbers and grades of horses in the districts shouldn't be that complicated,  surely?

Then races could be worked around horse availability. 

Leggy will correct me, but I think as long ago as when Balmerino was campaigning abroad, he took part in an 'overnight'  handicap in the US which reflected exactly that practice .

Yes, I've promoted the idea here for ever. Programming imo should be done monthly not quarterly and based on some survey system of available horses likely to be ready to start. Some places in the US it is done fortnightly. The 'additional race' idea here was a step forward in piloting that idea but they've been doing it for years now without ever deciding whether or not to expand the practice or even any formal assessment of it that I'm aware of. Hopeless.

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29 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Yes, I've promoted the idea here for ever. Programming imo should be done monthly not quarterly and based on some survey system of available horses likely to be ready to start. Some places in the US it is done fortnightly. The 'additional race' idea here was a step forward in piloting that idea but they've been doing it for years now without ever deciding whether or not to expand the practice or even any formal assessment of it that I'm aware of. 

There appears a few races for lower end horses in next 8 weeks in Canterbury . Why not next year trial a few blank meetings on these low end days . Trainers have a set time maybe three weeks out to put in who they want to run , and trip range . Set races from there to accommodate maximum amount of runners  and see how many follow through with noms . If it don't work it's a couple of low grade meetings been messed with that's all . Planning needs to be more flexible .

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6 hours ago, Red Rum said:

There appears a few races for lower end horses in next 8 weeks in Canterbury . Why not next year trial a few blank meetings on these low end days . Trainers have a set time maybe three weeks out to put in who they want to run , and trip range . Set races from there to accommodate maximum amount of runners  and see how many follow through with noms . If it don't work it's a couple of low grade meetings been messed with that's all . Planning needs to be more flexible .

Agree.

A while ago an 'open entry'  type of system was in use at Blenheim,  distances available were listed and horses entered for those distance categories.   Fields were then made up according to the grades/ratings of those horses entered. 

I thought it was a great idea, but there were complaints about the process....meant that fields couldn't be manipulated with multiple entries....but oh, how shortsighted.   A perfect example about how self-interest holds sway in this industry over the bigger picture. 

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