tim vince

Where

20 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, tim vince said:

Are the 2 year olds .4 horses 25k Friday. The yearling sales are all trumped up but where are they.

Kinda shocking Tim........I guess with the calendar thru November [ Cup week ] , December [Interdoms & Auckland Cup ] ,now into sales Prep for 2020 the few in North who have 2 yr olds are too busy or too cautious to show their hand or don't want to risk their ponies too early !

I recall at least 10 going around in trials up north etc.

The shortage of horses snowballs as a huge concern.....obviously this Young Gun series event had to be run for $25k with only 4 starters as horses entered as foals.

ATC had only 83 entries for 9 races ,and a $20k F & M races only had 3 nominations !

In addition Rotorua  Trots on Sunday had only 113 entries for 11 races ,with 3 races having 7 or less[ 1 with 5 ! ]. The 113 would include some of the 83 for ATC.

A concerted push to get more horses in North ,and keep them free from the active sellers in the area , seems like a crucial goal for those at the helm of ATC........Harness Racing should be still at the top of their priorities !

Small fields make the betting options less attractive and give folk even more reason for  not attending the course !

I think this weekend the Trots clash with Black Caps cricket , the Karaka on Saturday.

Maybe ATC has done a 'cross promotion' with the Karaka attendees?

Shame the Blues couldn't play a pre-season game at Alexandra Park , morphing into a night at Trots !

Meanwhile in the South...the NZ Met has 146 noms for 10 races...1 with 23 ,1 with 21 .

And on Sunday Banks Peninsula has 189 noms for 10 races.....some repeats with NZ Met , but still mighty plentiful plus so soon after 2 x days at Marlborough .

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Invercargill also had a 2 year old race carded but canned it after also receiving only 4 noms.  Interestingly all other races on the program are for 3 year old & up, so no opportunity for the 2 year olds to transfer to a ratings based race.

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If this is the trend for the future of the 2 year old racing in the north then the ATC have only 3 options:

1) - do not run separate races for fillies and colts/geldings as this obviously halves the pool

2) - run this series later say March or April

3) - scrap it

 

I'm sure the owners trainers breeders and auctioneers don't want the latter option!

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35 minutes ago, eljay said:

If this is the trend for the future of the 2 year old racing in the north then the ATC have only 3 options:

1) - do not run separate races for fillies and colts/geldings as this obviously halves the pool

2) - run this series later say March or April

3) - scrap it

 

I'm sure the owners trainers breeders and auctioneers don't want the latter option!

Eljay ,these are not 'normal' races which could be scraped or dickered with thru dismal acceptances.

These are special races administered thru the NZ Sires Stakes Board so they are planned well in advance as the eligible horses have paid into them as foals or yearlings with sustaining payments.Payments range from $100 as foal up to $600 for all series payments.So the breeders /owners who make these payments are aware these planned races will be held.

There are a number of Heat races from Southland to Auckland ,with the high stake final later in season.

These races can't be 'scraped' ...the money is 'in the bank'.

There are  separate series for  males and fillies for the pacers.

The trotters are unisex....no separation !

Generally connections want the separation , they don't want their young fillies having to race the boys .......but the trotters have no choice !!

Dunno what the %'s are , but discussing it with a couple of mates our experiences with young horses has been that less than 20% of horses get to race as 2 year olds[often as late 2 yr olds] so the % would be much lower at this time.....mid January !Among our group we currently involved in some 20 x 2 yr olds and only ONE been to the trials !

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Two points TM - the race this Friday is an ATC race - nothing to do with the Sires Stakes Board is it?     Unless the concept has been changed?      Has it?        In the past Sires Stakes Board races have even been run (Heats) as Non Totes.      Anyway, why race them early anyway.     I'm sure such races could be deferred by a couple of weeks or months if insufficient entries.         the finals are not till May-ish anyway.   No race for 2 y.o. trotters yet anyway.      

So back to this Friday - why run this race.     Nominations tell me trainers don't want this race anyway!

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8 hours ago, eljay said:

Two points TM - the race this Friday is an ATC race - nothing to do with the Sires Stakes Board is it?     Unless the concept has been changed?      Has it?        In the past Sires Stakes Board races have even been run (Heats) as Non Totes.      Anyway, why race them early anyway.     I'm sure such races could be deferred by a couple of weeks or months if insufficient entries.         the finals are not till May-ish anyway.   No race for 2 y.o. trotters yet anyway.      

So back to this Friday - why run this race.     Nominations tell me trainers don't want this race anyway!

You got me Lloyd......fancy a South Islander trying to reconcile why a $25 k race is run as a tote race with only 4 x noms.

I was thrown by 2 x NZB articles in December saying how the first NZB graduates were ready to step out in the Young Guns. I note too that the sixth  and final heat of the Young Guns on Feb 28 is a Qualifying race for the rich NZ Sires Stakes final in May.

Anyway the the finals of this Young Gun series is on Mar 6 , the Boys race a Group One for $100k and the fillies final a Group 2 for $80 k. That was the first of 2 x fillies heats last Friday.

Another poor entry !

The first heat of the boys in mid December had 10 starters ,was won by Its All About The Faith and stakes of $23 k paid ,while the heat 2 on Cup night was won by Krug who beat only 4 rivals so $20,500 stake paid .Will be $20k this week.

It seems a waste of money........surely this series will need reassessing now that the  ' NEW ' million $ series is being born out of the upcoming NZB sales and will stretch into 4 yr old season as well. 

Should be an extra incentive for folk to buy a yearling.

But entry costs steeper that NZ Sires Stakes series.....both Vender and purchaser will pay $350 + GST each , then there is a further payment of $1800 plus GST per horse to join the fun.

Be in to Win !

I read where the Young Gun series has been going since 1977 , the fillies since 1988.

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Well at least Tas there is no Pick 6 this week at Alex Park.     Last race would be a field leg I suppose.     Incidentally I believe this race is purposefully the last race on the cards because of all the shadows cast on the track by the sunlight on the light poles which, unlike Cambridge, cannot be lowered.     

I suppose the next problem is going to be the sunlight reflecting off the glass windows on the new buildings but I suppose no one has thought of that yet until it actually happens.     That would be a new reason for stewards to abandon a meeting I suppose.       I see the Lone Star reckon they will be open in time for the Easter Show - they well may be but will they be able to trade as the chances of the rest of the sites being completed by then and the car parks etc. being ready I would think would be pie in the sky.      I reckon there will be some very worrying times coming up over the next few months.

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The trouble with not running these races it's a disincentive to buy yearlings.everybody hopes for a 2 year old and a quick return.someone like John street puts his dosh up big time at sales gets them ready to race.would he bother if they cancelled 2 year old racing.thats the other side  of the coin.

 

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1 hour ago, tim vince said:

The trouble with not running these races it's a disincentive to buy yearlings.everybody hopes for a 2 year old and a quick return.someone like John street puts his dosh up big time at sales gets them ready to race.would he bother if they cancelled 2 year old racing.thats the other side  of the coin.

 

Not suggesting cancelling - just defer race(s) for a month or so if insufficient stock around.     What percentage of the upcoming sale will still be in the north and ready to race in December.   Yes, All Stars will have 3 or 4 as usual to bolster the numbers but I don't think many trainers will want their babies going 1-55 mile rates at that age so they will no doubt get qualified in Nov/Dec and straight to the spelling paddock which looks like has happened this year.       

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Tim, I think we do have stallions that produce early speed. Although the hobby and smaller trainers may be the life blood of the industry I'm not sure they have the time nor the expertise to get these youngsters up and running as 2year olds (No offence intended). When you walk out a yearling at the sales you, me or anyone else has no idea if they can really run yet two (I think) seasons ago, Mark Purdon had 20 - yes 20-  individual 2yr old winners. That's down to perception, experience and expertise, planning, trialling living with those horses every day in a professional situation. Few can do that but it doesn't mean other 2yr olds couldnt come early if handled differently. Of course many are against putting pressure on youngsters to race and out of those 20 MP horses maybe only  4 or 5  really go on. You would remember Jim Herring (Don Hayes' father in law) who had Milford Boy. He sired some handy horses but it was considered they 'needed time'. Most the offspring came from his Dally mates mares who ran, half starved. among the vineyards in Oratia. The poor foals hardly had a decent feed until they were 3 or 4. Then Don cam up with Vanderford and his sister Vandette, very good 2 and 3 year olds, and thinking changed. Bart Cummings bought horse to win Melbourne Cups as mature stayers but they ALL showed something early. It was just a matter of time. No such thing as 'one size fits all' but as you say, it's interesting that buyers go to sales to buy something with the idea of an early return, yet few get to the races so in regard to current field sizes and the state of the industry, it's obviously not about the money. Owners who look at saving money on training fees than the experience they are paying for and aiming at something that will give them a satisfactory return are destined to always be behind the eight-ball. But this is just my opinion.

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U right I sent one to ray green to c if he was going to make it early.ray said no.tremendous expertise needed the train these youngsters.average jo like myself  just don't have th he 3xperience. Also staff and top drivers working them helps.plus getting a guide when u have one that goes good.i remember watching testing times and thinking I'll never see a 2 year old as good as him.haha .going by times he d be flat winn8ng a trial.

 

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Things have changed. I remember watching Joker Man win the Morrinsville juvenile stakes in 2.02 in Sept 1986 against a full field. This early racing didn't appear to hurt his long term career as he went on to be a top horse. So as long as a horse is a "natural" 2yo and the trainer puts the horse's best interests first,  I'm entirely happy with 2yo racing. I am envious of the level of stakes on offer for the young gun pacers but do commend ATC for "keeping the faith". As owner of past juvenile trotters it was extremely annoying when time and again a programmed race was downgraded to a $2K non-tote even if 6 or so starters. In the end we gave up and don't bother trying to race our 2yos anymore (though  if Jewels in the North may be tempted late in season).

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