puha 2,177 Report post Posted January 18, 2020 With two group races being won yesterday by jockeys flouting the whip rules and copping suspensions is it unfair on the beaten horses and connections that have adhered to the whip restrictions? Red Rum, Leggy, Insider and 2 others 4 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 4 hours ago, puha said: With two group races being won yesterday by jockeys flouting the whip rules and copping suspensions is it unfair on the beaten horses and connections that have adhered to the whip restrictions? Whip use is a blight on the industry , these jocks time and again are either lacking composure getting white line fever or don't give a shit . It's one or other . Ramp up the fines , then ramp them up again . These whip happy jocks will soon get the message or get a new job not beating animals hopefully . Pam Robson, GOM and Scanman 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
voice of reason 83 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 totally agree ...the rule is there for a reason...enforce it properly and severely. agree p4p, then we would see who the true horsemen are..the premierships might look a bit different. GOM and weasel57 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,005 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 2 hours ago, poundforpound said: I can’t understand why NZTR doesn’t ban them Jockeys should be allowed to carry them but only for safety and guidance and they can’t rotate them which basically means an end to hitting behind the saddle Mind you such changes would require vision and an understanding of animal welfare .. and we’re dealing with NZTR here Completely agree that they should be allowed to carry them as you say. Certainly, that they may not rotate them and I'd say not use them for urging purposes with their whip hand off the reins. They should be allowed to change them from one hand to the other. Why NZTR still haven't fixed this is beyond me. Insider and weasel57 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, Leggy said: Completely agree that they should be allowed to carry them as you say. Certainly, that they may not rotate them and I'd say not use them for urging purposes with their whip hand off the reins. They should be allowed to change them from one hand to the other. Why NZTR still haven't fixed this is beyond me. Norway have small whips for 2 year old races and nothing after that . Surely NZTR should start educating the youngsters with a hands and heels series for them . Maybe get CWJ to do a tour giving some guidence to youngsters on how to get a horse to run without belting daylights out of it . All this shit whips don't hurt , now I've never been lucky enough to have a horse with say John Gosden so never been privy to his riding instructions but I've got an idea a 2 or 3 year old on debut from his yard would be something like listen up jockey one crack to let the horse know it's there to do a job if need be then hands and heels as he wants it not to have bad experience . But whip don't hurt ? Even the best in world succumb to it , the old money signs clicking over , Soumillon on Thunder Snow in 2018 BC Classic was sickening , but yet in France he's on 5 count and UK and Ireland on a seven and think he's pretty good on the ban totals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Robson 1,536 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 Agree with all above. I can recall the late Dave Kerr , years ago, insisting that Damien Browne be his rider of choice whenever possible because he was such a kind and balanced rider, and used the whip very sparingly. Dave was old school to a tee - but said to me, how the hell do you expect a horse to give its guts for you when you belt it for doing so ? I can just imagine the furore if the whip was banned altogether [ although it will have to come, no doubt about it ]. How would it work if the allowable amount of strikes was reduced dramatically to a figure overall, just to 'lead' those naysayers to accept the process more gradually ? bazach 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOM 1,017 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 It's a pleasure to watch the close finishes where the winner is pushed ahead hands and heels and get's the better of the one under the flogging, have seen a few of those lately bazach 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 The current usage of whips need to be banned. Animal welfare is here to stay. NZTR needs to start thinking of the future. Ban the use of whips for 2yo racing as a start. That means they don't become whip educated. Then ban current whip use in all 3yo races the following year and whenever a three year old is in any race from then on, no current whip usage allowed on any of the other contestants. After 5 years you have no current whip use. Whips should be renamed and only carried as a prompt or for steerage management issues. bazach, GOM, NeilD and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 There are two ways to stop whip use. Firstly, NZTR could show true leadership ( read “balls”) by banning them altogether. It would create a chain reaction across the Tasman and beyond. Or, secondly, they could bring in a new rule that says fines will be increased by X% and any guilty parties who finish in a stakes winning position will have their horse immediately disqualified from the race. Red Rum and dock leaf 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOM 1,017 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 I can never get my head around the whip doesn't hurt them argument If it doesn't hurt them then why hit them? People are much more aware of the whipping these days, they notice a horse being flogged. In my early day's the like's of Bill Skelton were praised for their ability with the whip in a close finish. Watching international racing it becomes obvious the best jockey's seem to use the whip the least. Whips will be banned sooner or later that is certain NZ may as well get some kudo's for being proactive rather than being forced into it. weasel57 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 I think trackside presenters and racing journos need to get some backbone and call it out .A horse at Reefton got a belting other week and blah blah blah they just ignore it, stipes didn't miss it , also they ignored the beautiful low smooth hands heels drive by second jock a young apprentice. Carrot and stick reward the excellence too . They need to call it out , people need to email RIU if it's missed by stipes and commentators need to call out whip use as whip use not persuader or any other nickname. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 2 hours ago, poundforpound said: What would the RIU know ? !! If you mean the raceday stewards, I get that, but most of the RIU investigating team are woefully inept when it comes to racing matters and they really don’t know anything about horses and / or racing To be fair to Mike Godber I emailed him a few years back about one of the worse cases of whip abuse I'd ever seen , in fact the worse case I'd seen to think of it . Iam not going to name horse or jockey but race is still on nztr website I think . I got a few others not into racing to view it and they immediately pointed out the disgusting treatment , I then discussed it with racing mates who agreed . Nothing went in stipes .He replied in agreement with me , he admitted it should have been in stipes report and stated he would deal with jockey by way of education , Noel Harris I recall was name he mentioned . I can double check race is still on there and PM you it but it was a while ago and jock improved so in past , I just use to to defend RIU in that particular case .Trackside totally ignored it , and post race it was ignored . It was utterly bizarre, it was like the effing twilight zone or something . So to be fair to Mike Godber , 3 times I've emailed him and twice we agreed once we didn't and but that's ok he's got to fight his corner . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 19, 2020 2 hours ago, poundforpound said: What would the RIU know ? !! If you mean the raceday stewards, I get that, but most of the RIU investigating team are woefully inept when it comes to racing matters and they really don’t know anything about horses and / or racing The race is still on there but don't know if it's me but the buffering on NZTR replys would drive most sane people to put a fist through the screen . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted January 20, 2020 Why does NZTR dilly dally around on the whip issue? Surely they could set the world on fire by banning whips? Show leadership etc. it won’t make any difference to NZ racing will it - other than chalk up at least one good move that will have the World of Racing sit up and follow little ole NZ’s lead. The Trainer’s lobby can’t be so strong that they might offer any meaningful objection. dock leaf, weasel57 and TurnyTom 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOODBINE 88 Report post Posted January 22, 2020 Whipping behind the saddle should be banned now. The winning jockeys who copped $1000 fines should also be stood down for say a minimum 2 week period. The severe whipping of horses is a blight on the industry and is tantamount to the canning of students at schools years ago. weasel57 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 1,080 Report post Posted January 22, 2020 37 minutes ago, WOODBINE said: Whipping behind the saddle should be banned now. The winning jockeys who copped $1000 fines should also be stood down for say a minimum 2 week period. The severe whipping of horses is a blight on the industry and is tantamount to the canning of students at schools years ago. Actually Woodbine, I think caning students worked pretty bloody well in a lot of cases at least in my day (early 60s) until I realised I could say 'NO' when the headmaster told me to bend over. A horse doesn't have that option. The whip certainly has to go at some point or only used on the shoulder with both hands remaining on the reins. However it happens, riding styles must then change. While I think there are several good judges of pace amongst our jockeys, their riding styles are close to atrocious. They use the stick because they are riding too short to kick with just two toes in the stirrups and they can't kick because their knees are waving in the breeze and unless your knees are stable you cannot move your lower leg. Gripping with the knees was the first thing we learnt a million years ago riding bareback. The pendulum will swing back at some point. GOM 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 22, 2020 Watched that Weigh In the other day , what an absolute joke . No mention at all of whip usage that I heard. It's average . How can you review both those races with multiple whip bans and make no mention of it then maintain any credibility as a reviewer . Did they not realise the bans , or notice whip use , if they did call it out as it is . They need to start calling it like it is . To not call it out is to condone it . Insider, GOM and weasel57 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 22, 2020 Animal Welfare Act 1999 , Maybe someone has already checked if it applies , hopefully the SPCA have in consultation with racing authorities have gone through whip use and how it is not in contravention of the Act , and what use would cross the line . I might do some study on it , maybe a section covers it . Maybe it's time for the law to step up in the shape of the SPCA and check compliance and that overuse does not cross into contravention of the Act . If so minds will very sharply get with the programme . Maybe when Iam bored and have heap of time on my hands I could put a horse into training , instruct trainer that in no way I want it whipped, I could name it " iamnevergettingwhipped lad " . Tell the stipes this horse will not be whipped , you might want to note it on the stipes report as such . Any number of ways to focus attention on whip abusers bar standing with a placard no one bothers looking at . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,874 Report post Posted January 23, 2020 Read this guys and gals and tell me why the NZTR, RITA and Harness Racing NZ are not on-side. If I was in charge, this would be at the very top of my "to achieve today" ....... before it's too late. https://thoroughbredracing.us3.list-manage.com/track/click?u=8f27b48b2f6f46ee70b93ed7d&id=c4faa767cc&e=4cc1cfdc61 If they cant see the world closing in on us, then none of them should have a job in our once outstanding industry/sport. Liz dock leaf, Red Rum, Pam Robson and 2 others 4 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 23, 2020 17 minutes ago, Insider said: Read this guys and gals and tell me why the NZTR, RITA and Harness Racing NZ are not on-side. If I was in charge, this would be at the very top of my "to achieve today" ....... before it's too late. https://thoroughbredracing.us3.list-manage.com/track/click?u=8f27b48b2f6f46ee70b93ed7d&id=c4faa767cc&e=4cc1cfdc61 If they cant see the world closing in on us, then none of them should have a job in our once outstanding industry/sport. Liz More and more highly respected racing people are coming out in favour of a ban on whip use , or severe restrictions . The whip abusers are going to get very lonely . John Francome very strong in his views that it needs to go , not many better horseman than him . GOM and Insider 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeepers 276 Report post Posted January 25, 2020 Race 1 today at Ellerslie. Ryan Elliot on Intrigue lost his whip at the top of the straight and got beaten by Dance Card ,M Dee who had his whip.Intrigue probably wins if Ryan had his whip. Shows the difference of having and not having in a tight finish. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,874 Report post Posted January 25, 2020 Jeepers, So.... if neither has a whip, Intrigue wins. The correct result wouldn’t you say? Liz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted January 25, 2020 10 hours ago, jeepers said: Race 1 today at Ellerslie. Ryan Elliot on Intrigue lost his whip at the top of the straight and got beaten by Dance Card ,M Dee who had his whip.Intrigue probably wins if Ryan had his whip. Shows the difference of having and not having in a tight finish. But every other jockey behind first two had a whip and Intrigue beat them . Would they have run faster without the whip ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 1,080 Report post Posted January 25, 2020 My question too. Look at some of the head-ons. Some if not most of the jockeys look pretty messy when under pressure using the whip whip in some cases shows the horse to be not well balanced. They'd be better off learning to hunker down, hold the horse together and use the true hands and heels IMHO. Have to drop their irons a couple of holes and put their feet home - shock horror !! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...