Grit123

All Stars slugfest

45 posts in this topic

Consider this.... Probably in most of our lifetimes of those reading this, you are never going to see better horse trainers (harness or galloping) than Mark Purdon and Natalie Rasmussen.

Once again they swept the floor at Alexandra Park last weekend capturing both ID Grand Finals along with five other races.

 

Never in history have we seen a juggernaut like this pair.

 

It is not the fact that they have totally dominated the sport for the past 6 1/2 years in all facets, but it is their strike rate which is truly astonishing.

 

Dwell on this and marvel.

 

The measure of trainers and drivers strike rate is measured by the UDR (Universal Driver Rating System).

 

It was devised by a couple of American standardbred enthusiasts in the 1950s and the mathematical assessment is based on that used to gauge the merits of batters in Major League Baseball.

 

If you bat over .3000 you are considered to be in that sport’s elite. Heard of Ty Cobb, Shoeless Joe Jackson,Ed Delahunty and Rogers Hornsby? Well they are immortals of baseball and are 4 of only 20 people who have ever recorded a batting average of over .4000 in a single season. The feat was last achieved in 1941 and is widely considered impossible in the modern game for various reasons.

 

Now ponder this!

 

When the dust had settled at AP on Saturday night,  Purdon/Rasmussen walked away with their UDR sitting at .4437. That in itself is incredible but for every season since they joined forces in the 2013/14 term they have bettered the .4000 mark - their best being a mind blowing .5063 in their third season together.

 

When Purdon trained with Grant Payne for five seasons, three times they bettered .4000, while in 13 years prior when he trained by himself, Purdon notched another .4000 in 2001/2002. Only once in those early formative years did his strike rate dip below .3000.

 

Some trainers have bettered .4000 but it has been with small numbers of starters. All Stars have over 300 starters every season.

 

All Stars have the luxurious position of quitting horses at an early stage if they feel that horse won’t be shining any beacon.

 

But to be fair to Mark and Natalie they have got to that status by stepping up to the plate and hitting the ball out of the park.

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It's better than .4000 how do you beat 1.000 when you have 5 horses in a race.

In actual fact on the night there were only 7 horses that beat an Allstar horse home. 3 of those beat Chase Auckland and he helped his stable mates finish 3 and 4 from impossible positions. 

While they are champion trainers and should be applauded. It is the elephant in the room that is killing the sport. Its time to cut stakes in our group races and start putting more into lower grade races. Its the only thing that will get the breeding industry back on track.

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I guess when tiger was winning all the time the winning prize should have been reduced.   That not right..i want to have the big carrot like a big  pick 6.same as group racing.the challenge is to bring low stake clubs like Cambridge to better levels .maybe knock 300k from head office and add 1000 to 300 races.but keep the carrot.

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So are all the other harness trainers going around at the moment pretty ordinary, to say the least? Is it good for the industry? Can anyone explain why they are so dominant? Are they superior trainers or incredibly good at selecting the right yearlings? Are other trainers giving up because they realise they will never be successful and will never be able to make money out of the game. How do some trainers manage to attract any horses at all if their success rate is so poor?

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10 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

So are all the other harness trainers going around at the moment pretty ordinary, to say the least? Is it good for the industry? Can anyone explain why they are so dominant? Are they superior trainers or incredibly good at selecting the right yearlings? Are other trainers giving up because they realise they will never be successful and will never be able to make money out of the game. How do some trainers manage to attract any horses at all if their success rate is so poor?

There are a multitude of reasons why they are so good.

Probably the main ingredient for their strike rate is the fact they don’t tolerate mediocrity. The battling racehorse doesn’t even get to their barn - it’s culled by those doing the breaking in. Included in this list will be high priced yearling purchases.

Next Purdon has always been innovative in his approach to training and horsemanship. There has to be a direct correlation to an increased strike rate and his move to Rolleston and a straight training track.

Thirdly imagine the possibilities presented when you have half a dozen cup class horses to work together. None of the other good trainers are spoilt like that. Surely AS can get a degree more fitness into their charges. On that note it is interesting Ray Green has the best 3yo in the country and has another that is not that far behind. It must condition horses better.

Of course having many horses in one race just leads to the result they will win. And they do but many times they run second and third also and then of course the nutcracker is when they have the sole horse they still win - generally.

Their domination, I think, is bad for the industry, but it is idiotic to somehow punish them for their astonishing results. The pair strive for excellence in their profession and everyone should applaud that.

Jealousy is a human nature that at times can be bitter. Bigger the person who can put that aside.

 

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4 hours ago, Grit123 said:

There are a multitude of reasons why they are so good.

Probably the main ingredient for their strike rate is the fact they don’t tolerate mediocrity. The battling racehorse doesn’t even get to their barn - it’s culled by those doing the breaking in. Included in this list will be high priced yearling purchases.

Next Purdon has always been innovative in his approach to training and horsemanship. There has to be a direct correlation to an increased strike rate and his move to Rolleston and a straight training track.

Thirdly imagine the possibilities presented when you have half a dozen cup class horses to work together. None of the other good trainers are spoilt like that. Surely AS can get a degree more fitness into their charges. On that note it is interesting Ray Green has the best 3yo in the country and has another that is not that far behind. It must condition horses better.

Of course having many horses in one race just leads to the result they will win. And they do but many times they run second and third also and then of course the nutcracker is when they have the sole horse they still win - generally.

Their domination, I think, is bad for the industry, but it is idiotic to somehow punish them for their astonishing results. The pair strive for excellence in their profession and everyone should applaud that.

Jealousy is a human nature that at times can be bitter. Bigger the person who can put that aside.

 

Great post but all is not lost for their opposition as there bigger owners are sharing their horses around a lot more these days

Further , the next month or so usually sees them have a clean out of stock who have met their mark in the stable. Im talking the number 5 and above 3yr olds and open class pacers the likes of AL and AM

 

Greg

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7 minutes ago, eljay said:

Not "getting"  at anything.     

Ok , so why ask the question then, why would owners  monthly bill be any different  than any other month. It may be that they like other horses that traveled  north are charged float fees and accommodation etc but that would occur for all horses competing from South.

 

Greg

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42 minutes ago, eljay said:

OK, you win

Hardly. Your recent posts imply impropriety. If you have evidence produce it here or take it to RIU. I'm all for high standards of integrity but the stable you keep mentioning has been tested  endlessly both here and offshore. 

Blood spinning issues were put to bed with a rule change. 

Perhaps they are just superior cos no vet I've ever met has said there is something to make horses of any type go faster. Perhaps you know better

 

Greg

 

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Hey JJ mate, don't be too hard on eljay, (eljay you can correct me if I'm wrong) I think possibly he was just musing (thinkin out loud) on what Snipers owners bill maybe; nothin more....Grit, I agree we should be applaudin the mighty AllStars not lookin to tear em down at every turn, they have knowledge, experience and talent to burn as trainers, and clearly a business model that they follow to the letter, they work damn hard at it, developin and changin, good on them I say.....great thing about it is, it gives the others summit to aim for, summit to better; that's gotta be good for the sport surely.....

 

Cheers Iraklis

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9 hours ago, Grit123 said:

There are a multitude of reasons why they are so good.

Probably the main ingredient for their strike rate is the fact they don’t tolerate mediocrity. The battling racehorse doesn’t even get to their barn - it’s culled by those doing the breaking in. Included in this list will be high priced yearling purchases.

Next Purdon has always been innovative in his approach to training and horsemanship. There has to be a direct correlation to an increased strike rate and his move to Rolleston and a straight training track.

Thirdly imagine the possibilities presented when you have half a dozen cup class horses to work together. None of the other good trainers are spoilt like that. Surely AS can get a degree more fitness into their charges. On that note it is interesting Ray Green has the best 3yo in the country and has another that is not that far behind. It must condition horses better.

Of course having many horses in one race just leads to the result they will win. And they do but many times they run second and third also and then of course the nutcracker is when they have the sole horse they still win - generally.

Their domination, I think, is bad for the industry, but it is idiotic to somehow punish them for their astonishing results. The pair strive for excellence in their profession and everyone should applaud that.

Jealousy is a human nature that at times can be bitter. Bigger the person who can put that aside.

 

If there were more posters who could submit intelligent posts like this, both in content and comprehension, the Race Cafe world would be a better place

Damn, Tims got me going again "a world of my own, that no one else can share, a world far away from here, and I know that I'll find, I'll find peace of mind, in a world far away from here". The Seekers. I promise I didn't google it, am I close Tim?

Mikie

 

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On 12/18/2019 at 1:30 PM, JJ Flash said:

Hardly. Your recent posts imply impropriety. If you have evidence produce it here or take it to RIU. I'm all for high standards of integrity but the stable you keep mentioning has been tested  endlessly both here and offshore. 

Blood spinning issues were put to bed with a rule change. 

Perhaps they are just superior cos no vet I've ever met has said there is something to make horses of any type go faster. Perhaps you know better

 

Greg

 

Really you got your head in the sand if you think there is nothing to that will make a horse go faster. 

The ability to not feel pain will make a horse maintain their highest speed for longer. Its called going through the pain barrier. They can only do it for so long then they do damage to themselves also known as breaking down.

 

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12 hours ago, dkc said:

Really you got your head in the sand if you think there is nothing to that will make a horse go faster. 

The ability to not feel pain will make a horse maintain their highest speed for longer. Its called going through the pain barrier. They can only do it for so long then they do damage to themselves also known as breaking down.

 

I was quoting.multiple vets and i never saw them with thier heads in the sand.

You're obviously a member of the conspiracy sect re All Stars  and like the rest have no evidence.

As such your very easy to ignore especially with your unscientific waffle about pain. For the second time if a horse is slow nothing a vet or anyone else can give it will make it go faster. That was the main tenet of my original post.

 

Greg

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Really you got your head in the sand if you think there is nothing to that will make a horse go faster. 

The ability to not feel pain will make a horse maintain their highest speed for longer. Its called going through the pain barrier. They can only do it for so long then they do damage to themselves also known as breaking down.

 

JJ Flask aka Greg is 100% correct and DKC is incorrect

There is nothing that will make a horse go faster than nature and training specify

Drugs will only help a horse maintain their top speed for longer

I do not believe that All Stars use anything illegal

Operation Inca included their phones being tapped as well and not one iota of reference was ever heard in relation to illegal drugs

Quite simply, they buy the best horses at the Yearling Sales, or they buy the best running along later, then their training methods are obviously world class

Yes., their dominance may be harmful in some ways but I didn't see any Kiwis complaining when we won 2 Rugby World Cups in a row

Mikie

 

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Purdon is as you say JJ an amazing trainer, but let's not pretend that he is lilly white. He has been found guilty of administering illegal substances to race horses and has served a 6 month disqualification  for it.

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2 hours ago, Stables said:

Purdon is as you say JJ an amazing trainer, but let's not pretend that he is lilly white. He has been found guilty of administering illegal substances to race horses and has served a 6 month disqualification  for it.

You are quite right Stables, he did

My comments relate to the present

To be fair, haven't a high percentage of all our leading trainers had some issues or charges

Not all, and those that haven't are to be commended

Mikie

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3 hours ago, Stables said:

Purdon is as you say JJ an amazing trainer, but let's not pretend that he is lilly white. He has been found guilty of administering illegal substances to race horses and has served a 6 month disqualification  for it.

FFS Stables. That was 20 years ago and Purdon dobbed himself in. Blue was used by not just him.

How many charges have Dunns been found guilty of and how recently have they occurred .

 

Greg

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