Grit123 27 Report post Posted December 16, 2019 Consider this.... Probably in most of our lifetimes of those reading this, you are never going to see better horse trainers (harness or galloping) than Mark Purdon and Natalie Rasmussen. Once again they swept the floor at Alexandra Park last weekend capturing both ID Grand Finals along with five other races. Never in history have we seen a juggernaut like this pair. It is not the fact that they have totally dominated the sport for the past 6 1/2 years in all facets, but it is their strike rate which is truly astonishing. Dwell on this and marvel. The measure of trainers and drivers strike rate is measured by the UDR (Universal Driver Rating System). It was devised by a couple of American standardbred enthusiasts in the 1950s and the mathematical assessment is based on that used to gauge the merits of batters in Major League Baseball. If you bat over .3000 you are considered to be in that sport’s elite. Heard of Ty Cobb, Shoeless Joe Jackson,Ed Delahunty and Rogers Hornsby? Well they are immortals of baseball and are 4 of only 20 people who have ever recorded a batting average of over .4000 in a single season. The feat was last achieved in 1941 and is widely considered impossible in the modern game for various reasons. Now ponder this! When the dust had settled at AP on Saturday night, Purdon/Rasmussen walked away with their UDR sitting at .4437. That in itself is incredible but for every season since they joined forces in the 2013/14 term they have bettered the .4000 mark - their best being a mind blowing .5063 in their third season together. When Purdon trained with Grant Payne for five seasons, three times they bettered .4000, while in 13 years prior when he trained by himself, Purdon notched another .4000 in 2001/2002. Only once in those early formative years did his strike rate dip below .3000. Some trainers have bettered .4000 but it has been with small numbers of starters. All Stars have over 300 starters every season. All Stars have the luxurious position of quitting horses at an early stage if they feel that horse won’t be shining any beacon. But to be fair to Mark and Natalie they have got to that status by stepping up to the plate and hitting the ball out of the park. JJ Flash, Iraklis, Spikecity and 1 other 3 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkc 181 Report post Posted December 16, 2019 It's better than .4000 how do you beat 1.000 when you have 5 horses in a race. In actual fact on the night there were only 7 horses that beat an Allstar horse home. 3 of those beat Chase Auckland and he helped his stable mates finish 3 and 4 from impossible positions. While they are champion trainers and should be applauded. It is the elephant in the room that is killing the sport. Its time to cut stakes in our group races and start putting more into lower grade races. Its the only thing that will get the breeding industry back on track. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted December 16, 2019 I guess when tiger was winning all the time the winning prize should have been reduced. That not right..i want to have the big carrot like a big pick 6.same as group racing.the challenge is to bring low stake clubs like Cambridge to better levels .maybe knock 300k from head office and add 1000 to 300 races.but keep the carrot. lamour, Iraklis and Hunter the punter 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,855 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 So are all the other harness trainers going around at the moment pretty ordinary, to say the least? Is it good for the industry? Can anyone explain why they are so dominant? Are they superior trainers or incredibly good at selecting the right yearlings? Are other trainers giving up because they realise they will never be successful and will never be able to make money out of the game. How do some trainers manage to attract any horses at all if their success rate is so poor? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,719 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 Interesting to see the bill Ultimate Sniper's owners get for December. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grit123 27 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 10 hours ago, We're Doomed said: So are all the other harness trainers going around at the moment pretty ordinary, to say the least? Is it good for the industry? Can anyone explain why they are so dominant? Are they superior trainers or incredibly good at selecting the right yearlings? Are other trainers giving up because they realise they will never be successful and will never be able to make money out of the game. How do some trainers manage to attract any horses at all if their success rate is so poor? There are a multitude of reasons why they are so good. Probably the main ingredient for their strike rate is the fact they don’t tolerate mediocrity. The battling racehorse doesn’t even get to their barn - it’s culled by those doing the breaking in. Included in this list will be high priced yearling purchases. Next Purdon has always been innovative in his approach to training and horsemanship. There has to be a direct correlation to an increased strike rate and his move to Rolleston and a straight training track. Thirdly imagine the possibilities presented when you have half a dozen cup class horses to work together. None of the other good trainers are spoilt like that. Surely AS can get a degree more fitness into their charges. On that note it is interesting Ray Green has the best 3yo in the country and has another that is not that far behind. It must condition horses better. Of course having many horses in one race just leads to the result they will win. And they do but many times they run second and third also and then of course the nutcracker is when they have the sole horse they still win - generally. Their domination, I think, is bad for the industry, but it is idiotic to somehow punish them for their astonishing results. The pair strive for excellence in their profession and everyone should applaud that. Jealousy is a human nature that at times can be bitter. Bigger the person who can put that aside. MisterEd, JJ Flash, Overcheck and 1 other 3 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,135 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 6 hours ago, eljay said: Interesting to see the bill Ultimate Sniper's owners get for December. Why , what are you trying to get at this time re Team AS Greg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,719 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 Not "getting" at anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,135 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 4 hours ago, Grit123 said: There are a multitude of reasons why they are so good. Probably the main ingredient for their strike rate is the fact they don’t tolerate mediocrity. The battling racehorse doesn’t even get to their barn - it’s culled by those doing the breaking in. Included in this list will be high priced yearling purchases. Next Purdon has always been innovative in his approach to training and horsemanship. There has to be a direct correlation to an increased strike rate and his move to Rolleston and a straight training track. Thirdly imagine the possibilities presented when you have half a dozen cup class horses to work together. None of the other good trainers are spoilt like that. Surely AS can get a degree more fitness into their charges. On that note it is interesting Ray Green has the best 3yo in the country and has another that is not that far behind. It must condition horses better. Of course having many horses in one race just leads to the result they will win. And they do but many times they run second and third also and then of course the nutcracker is when they have the sole horse they still win - generally. Their domination, I think, is bad for the industry, but it is idiotic to somehow punish them for their astonishing results. The pair strive for excellence in their profession and everyone should applaud that. Jealousy is a human nature that at times can be bitter. Bigger the person who can put that aside. Great post but all is not lost for their opposition as there bigger owners are sharing their horses around a lot more these days Further , the next month or so usually sees them have a clean out of stock who have met their mark in the stable. Im talking the number 5 and above 3yr olds and open class pacers the likes of AL and AM Greg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,135 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, eljay said: Not "getting" at anything. Ok , so why ask the question then, why would owners monthly bill be any different than any other month. It may be that they like other horses that traveled north are charged float fees and accommodation etc but that would occur for all horses competing from South. Greg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,719 Report post Posted December 17, 2019 OK, you win Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,135 Report post Posted December 18, 2019 42 minutes ago, eljay said: OK, you win Hardly. Your recent posts imply impropriety. If you have evidence produce it here or take it to RIU. I'm all for high standards of integrity but the stable you keep mentioning has been tested endlessly both here and offshore. Blood spinning issues were put to bed with a rule change. Perhaps they are just superior cos no vet I've ever met has said there is something to make horses of any type go faster. Perhaps you know better Greg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted December 18, 2019 Grit u have said it all.excellent summation. JJ Flash 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay 1,719 Report post Posted December 18, 2019 Impropriety - where did I say that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraklis 2,231 Report post Posted December 18, 2019 Hey JJ mate, don't be too hard on eljay, (eljay you can correct me if I'm wrong) I think possibly he was just musing (thinkin out loud) on what Snipers owners bill maybe; nothin more....Grit, I agree we should be applaudin the mighty AllStars not lookin to tear em down at every turn, they have knowledge, experience and talent to burn as trainers, and clearly a business model that they follow to the letter, they work damn hard at it, developin and changin, good on them I say.....great thing about it is, it gives the others summit to aim for, summit to better; that's gotta be good for the sport surely..... Cheers Iraklis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie 326 Report post Posted December 18, 2019 9 hours ago, Grit123 said: There are a multitude of reasons why they are so good. Probably the main ingredient for their strike rate is the fact they don’t tolerate mediocrity. The battling racehorse doesn’t even get to their barn - it’s culled by those doing the breaking in. Included in this list will be high priced yearling purchases. Next Purdon has always been innovative in his approach to training and horsemanship. There has to be a direct correlation to an increased strike rate and his move to Rolleston and a straight training track. Thirdly imagine the possibilities presented when you have half a dozen cup class horses to work together. None of the other good trainers are spoilt like that. Surely AS can get a degree more fitness into their charges. On that note it is interesting Ray Green has the best 3yo in the country and has another that is not that far behind. It must condition horses better. Of course having many horses in one race just leads to the result they will win. And they do but many times they run second and third also and then of course the nutcracker is when they have the sole horse they still win - generally. Their domination, I think, is bad for the industry, but it is idiotic to somehow punish them for their astonishing results. The pair strive for excellence in their profession and everyone should applaud that. Jealousy is a human nature that at times can be bitter. Bigger the person who can put that aside. If there were more posters who could submit intelligent posts like this, both in content and comprehension, the Race Cafe world would be a better place Damn, Tims got me going again "a world of my own, that no one else can share, a world far away from here, and I know that I'll find, I'll find peace of mind, in a world far away from here". The Seekers. I promise I didn't google it, am I close Tim? Mikie JJ Flash 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkc 181 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 On 12/18/2019 at 1:30 PM, JJ Flash said: Hardly. Your recent posts imply impropriety. If you have evidence produce it here or take it to RIU. I'm all for high standards of integrity but the stable you keep mentioning has been tested endlessly both here and offshore. Blood spinning issues were put to bed with a rule change. Perhaps they are just superior cos no vet I've ever met has said there is something to make horses of any type go faster. Perhaps you know better Greg Really you got your head in the sand if you think there is nothing to that will make a horse go faster. The ability to not feel pain will make a horse maintain their highest speed for longer. Its called going through the pain barrier. They can only do it for so long then they do damage to themselves also known as breaking down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,135 Report post Posted December 20, 2019 12 hours ago, dkc said: Really you got your head in the sand if you think there is nothing to that will make a horse go faster. The ability to not feel pain will make a horse maintain their highest speed for longer. Its called going through the pain barrier. They can only do it for so long then they do damage to themselves also known as breaking down. I was quoting.multiple vets and i never saw them with thier heads in the sand. You're obviously a member of the conspiracy sect re All Stars and like the rest have no evidence. As such your very easy to ignore especially with your unscientific waffle about pain. For the second time if a horse is slow nothing a vet or anyone else can give it will make it go faster. That was the main tenet of my original post. Greg Pam Robson and Iraklis 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie 326 Report post Posted December 21, 2019 Really you got your head in the sand if you think there is nothing to that will make a horse go faster. The ability to not feel pain will make a horse maintain their highest speed for longer. Its called going through the pain barrier. They can only do it for so long then they do damage to themselves also known as breaking down. JJ Flask aka Greg is 100% correct and DKC is incorrect There is nothing that will make a horse go faster than nature and training specify Drugs will only help a horse maintain their top speed for longer I do not believe that All Stars use anything illegal Operation Inca included their phones being tapped as well and not one iota of reference was ever heard in relation to illegal drugs Quite simply, they buy the best horses at the Yearling Sales, or they buy the best running along later, then their training methods are obviously world class Yes., their dominance may be harmful in some ways but I didn't see any Kiwis complaining when we won 2 Rugby World Cups in a row Mikie Iraklis and JJ Flash 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stables 577 Report post Posted December 21, 2019 Purdon is as you say JJ an amazing trainer, but let's not pretend that he is lilly white. He has been found guilty of administering illegal substances to race horses and has served a 6 month disqualification for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie 326 Report post Posted December 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Stables said: Purdon is as you say JJ an amazing trainer, but let's not pretend that he is lilly white. He has been found guilty of administering illegal substances to race horses and has served a 6 month disqualification for it. You are quite right Stables, he did My comments relate to the present To be fair, haven't a high percentage of all our leading trainers had some issues or charges Not all, and those that haven't are to be commended Mikie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stables 577 Report post Posted December 21, 2019 I think there are very few trainers in New Zealand who wouldn't seize an opportunity to gain an advantage over their competitors. Times are tough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie 326 Report post Posted December 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, Stables said: Times are tough. Tell me about it! All the best to everyone in the Harness sport for Christmas and the New Year Mikie Iraklis and JJ Flash 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash 2,135 Report post Posted December 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Stables said: Purdon is as you say JJ an amazing trainer, but let's not pretend that he is lilly white. He has been found guilty of administering illegal substances to race horses and has served a 6 month disqualification for it. FFS Stables. That was 20 years ago and Purdon dobbed himself in. Blue was used by not just him. How many charges have Dunns been found guilty of and how recently have they occurred . Greg Iraklis 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stables 577 Report post Posted December 21, 2019 14 years ago to be precise and this discussion was about Mark Purdon, not the Dunns Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...