We're Doomed

Interdoms

21 posts in this topic

Just a small contribution from someone who is very much a gallops punter these days, but who started out as a trots punter. In fact I attended every NZ Interdominions final over a 20 year period from the late 70s to early 90s.

There has been a lot of comment on here about the relative lack of interest in this year's Interdoms, lack of promotion and no pick 6 etc. One problem with harness racing is that those actively involved aren't able to view their industry from the perspective of the casual punter or member of the public.

I can tell you that on one of the biggest days of the year, with the major harness race in Australasia, when five of the 10 winners pay $1.30 or less, nine of the winners pay $2.10 or less, the roughie for the night pays $4.40, and the grand final winner pays $1.30, that to the casual punter just screams BORING. I wouldn't walk out my back door to go to that meeting. I go to the races to have a bet. $1.30 winners do nothing for me. A race-meeting might be able to carry one $1.30 winner for some sort of super star, like a Winx, where people just sit and watch and do their serious betting on the other races, but a whole meeting of such winners is never going to attract the average punter.

I have no idea what you can do if certain horses are totally dominant and one stable is totally dominant, but just realise this isn't going to attract the average punter. I think I read in one of the interdom threads that some of the biggest cheerleaders don't actually bet. You need to realise that at the end of the day racing is funded totally by the punters.

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The games and racing in all codes is about winners and currently Purdon and co are the titleholders. Some of their opposition will back off and chuck in the towel. Others will continue to sell  to USA and/or Oz and see their former steads make truck loads for their new owners but the NZ trainer is happy as he got his 10% .

Truth is that history shows no trainers will ever dominate over a whole State or Country.

 

Greg

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13 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

The games and racing in all codes is about winners and currently Purdon and co are the titleholders. Some of their opposition will back off and chuck in the towel. Others will continue to sell  to USA and/or Oz and see their former steads make truck loads for their new owners but the NZ trainer is happy as he got his 10% .

Truth is that history shows no trainers will ever dominate over a whole State or Country.

 

Greg

I wasn't actually complaining about the Purdons, good on them I say. The problem would have been the same if the $1.30 winners all came from different stables. I was more commenting about those who think the racing was great and can't understand why the general public wasn't interested. The fact is that racing is a betting game, and red hots in every race just don't do it for the average punter..

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The reason we are exporting if u talk to owners or trainers is the handicapping.personally ihhave one going on a 50 50 tomorrow,prob 4 in the wings.one has a rating near 60 here . In Australia where he is going he is on 40 on a minimum 30..anther who is mid 50s is 31. And so it goes on.we discourage longevity and aged horses.i know another who ran 4t h Friday going to Melbourne on deal.i h have a contact searching for older horses and plenty of them .He just laughs when u get same points for winning 20k race as u do a  7k.its all very well basking in he glory of the big races which were amazing but the reality day in  day out of having a good supply of horses relies on like with like.im personally getting rid of decent horses because if they are  not on a  realistic rating or close wasting my time.suits seem completely unable to deal with it.

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5 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

Just a small contribution from someone who is very much a gallops punter these days, but who started out as a trots punter. In fact I attended every NZ Interdominions final over a 20 year period from the late 70s to early 90s.

There has been a lot of comment on here about the relative lack of interest in this year's Interdoms, lack of promotion and no pick 6 etc. One problem with harness racing is that those actively involved aren't able to view their industry from the perspective of the casual punter or member of the public.

I can tell you that on one of the biggest days of the year, with the major harness race in Australasia, when five of the 10 winners pay $1.30 or less, nine of the winners pay $2.10 or less, the roughie for the night pays $4.40, and the grand final winner pays $1.30, that to the casual punter just screams BORING. I wouldn't walk out my back door to go to that meeting. I go to the races to have a bet. $1.30 winners do nothing for me. A race-meeting might be able to carry one $1.30 winner for some sort of super star, like a Winx, where people just sit and watch and do their serious betting on the other races, but a whole meeting of such winners is never going to attract the average punter.

I have no idea what you can do if certain horses are totally dominant and one stable is totally dominant, but just realise this isn't going to attract the average punter. I think I read in one of the interdom threads that some of the biggest cheerleaders don't actually bet. You need to realise that at the end of the day racing is funded totally by the punters.

This 'casual' or smalltime punter wasn't bored ,nor were many others I interacted with on the night....the previous Interdom nights had thrown out some surprises and good divis..especially the first night. 

We soon realised that the skinny odds , made worse by smallish fields mean't tris an F4 the best option and many of these OK.

Form held up very well , real consistency and confidence ......the integrity of the event shone thru and races were generally run at a good clip so little of the sit/sprint racing which can dog NZ Harness.

Personally I liked The Fixer and Massive Metro ,both offered very good value considering their form. 

Many folk say very good horses will bring the crowds....well they were there in all age-groups and the races were in the main competitive.The skinny prices on final night perhaps the 'big elite' punter betting with confidence.

I couple of mates did the all-ups and even at the skinny odds , made a good profit.Very happy !

Hindsight is easy ,but hard to believe they all won ! Normally one or more gets bowled. A couple were very hard pushed , and it was brilliant driving which gave the edge and the win.

To recap....Night one.....3 x win favourites won ,only one under $2. PKing paid $28 and AGW $30 while Winterfell paid $7.70 as 4th fav.

Night two....3 x favs win ,one under $2.

Night three.......3 x favs , 2 x under $2

Night four.....NOT Interdoms ....2 x fav out of 8 races.

FINALS....the cream rose to top !

I spoke to many Aussies....they really enjoyed the series and the racing.Their horses added some interest but didn't really threaten. Disappointing.

As a side issue 4 x winners on FINALS night are Aussie owned......2 x Group 1's and a Group 2.

There was ONE group of 50 Aussies and many folk from South Island.

The crowd was much as I anticipated ,one friend took his family of young adults and commented that at the age they just not interested in betting !

I thought there was OK promotion considering the financial state of the ATC who made just $200k from 'Racing' last year.Im pleased they didn't piss that into the wind.During the NZ Cup meeting the event was widely mentioned on racing channels , social media, Club newsletters, MG previews in Herald , TV1 news item[ Icandoosit] and NZ Herald inserts and TAB texts etc. Scattergun advertising is expensive !

Free admission and race books ...today I paid $50 to Breakers game plus parking and inferior food !

If all Harness enthusiasts in region and ATC members [ +500] showed up that is a great start before the Corporate diners catered for.

The new screen was great ,still has some teething issues ...weather great.

Despite the bottle neck at Owners ticket booth ,and entrance to Tasman room and the punters club being aborted,and bars poorly organised early in night I think the club did well .....its rarely if ever that busy !

 

And the commentator called the Sniper ,the Fixer a few times but ALL the Staff worked hard ..its kinda a one -off night and the building issues affect parking !

I'd give them 8.5 out of 10.

 

 

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WDoomed mate, sure you maybe someone who goes to the races 'to have a bet' , however not everyone does! it aint the be an end all; goin to the races does have other attractions, there are those of us out there who actually do go along to be entertained, who do just want to see the stars of the show 'the horses' doin what they do best against the best on the night, be around other like minded people - socialise, and for us it is great night out; you got booze an grub right there, and if you're lucky get out to see your favs in the stable, talk to your fav drivers and trainers and get up close an personal with that all those amazin equine athletes......and mate there are countries out there where they have NO bettin, they're either gettin summit right or really wrong, yet they still race on; yep good ol competition dontcha just love it.....

Tasman, what got me fired up re promotion of the Inters series was when I was talkin to different friends and acquaintances and I mentioned the Inters, none of them knew about it and they were all locals Pukeites, what the hell? the home of Franklin Trottin Club, trainin track etc others from Papakura, Manukau and these people didn't know, scattergun advertisin is expensive simply by its nature, a waste of good money, targeted focused advertising is better use of the advertisin dollar, and chuckin ads in racin paps or on trackside as one other poster put it, thats a waste as your preaching to the converted; yes great to see coverage of the mighty ICanDoosit and he looked amazin, hard case to see him gettin his race face on when he thought he was guna be racin.....

 

Cheers Iraklis

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2 minutes ago, tim vince said:

The racing was super best I've seen in a long while.so the favourites won  but most of the races were competitive.wouldnt have taken much for the placing to be different.

Good summation Tim , thats the way i saw it as well.

 

Greg

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21 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

thought there was OK promotion considering the financial state of the ATC who made just $200k from 'Racing' last year.

Tasman Man, I'll bet you a dinner for 2 that ATC did not make $200k from Racing last year, if you deduct the monies from the Poker machines on the course that is transferred to the Racing Account

Mikie

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14 hours ago, Iraklis said:

WDoomed mate, sure you maybe someone who goes to the races 'to have a bet' , however not everyone does! it aint the be an end all; goin to the races does have other attractions, there are those of us out there who actually do go along to be entertained, who do just want to see the stars of the show 'the horses' doin what they do best against the best on the night, be around other like minded people - socialise, and for us it is great night out; you got booze an grub right there, and if you're lucky get out to see your favs in the stable, talk to your fav drivers and trainers and get up close an personal with that all those amazin equine athletes......and mate there are countries out there where they have NO bettin, they're either gettin summit right or really wrong, yet they still race on; yep good ol competition dontcha just love it.....

Tasman, what got me fired up re promotion of the Inters series was when I was talkin to different friends and acquaintances and I mentioned the Inters, none of them knew about it and they were all locals Pukeites, what the hell? the home of Franklin Trottin Club, trainin track etc others from Papakura, Manukau and these people didn't know, scattergun advertisin is expensive simply by its nature, a waste of good money, targeted focused advertising is better use of the advertisin dollar, and chuckin ads in racin paps or on trackside as one other poster put it, thats a waste as your preaching to the converted; yes great to see coverage of the mighty ICanDoosit and he looked amazin, hard case to see him gettin his race face on when he thought he was guna be racin.....

 

Cheers Iraklis

Well Iraklis , when Pukeites are introduced to the Internet and other modern forms of communications they will get up with the play !

in the meantime you should become the regions No 1 Cheerleader with plenty of Hoop and Holler and maybe organise regular ticker-tape parades in Puke to promote the sport !

I suggest you start by becoming a member of the ATC and on their email list.

A bit pointless expending all your energies in Harness going into a social media website .

Get amongst it !

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2 hours ago, Mikie said:

Tasman Man, I'll bet you a dinner for 2 that ATC did not make $200k from Racing last year, if you deduct the monies from the Poker machines on the course that is transferred to the Racing Account

Mikie

Mikie, my comment to stress the tight cash flow situation at the club was made from memory from what I took in at the AGM when the CFO went thru the accounts.The Racing account actually contributed $252k ,which was down from $627k in 2018. 

The main reason being the increased stakes which saw the club pay stakes out  which were $430k over and above what the Industry Funding for stakes was. Plus subsidies from HRNZ and NZ Sire stakes board for specific races was less too !

No mention of Pokie machines in the Racing Account !

The Pokies and TAB are lumped in with the Food and Beverage dept in the Trading account.

This account overall contributed $3.253 mil [ 2018 $3.716 ]

Food and beverage contributed over $1.1 mil while gaming and TAB contributed a combined total of $2.7 mil.

The $1.1 and $2.7 mil was before marketing expenses of $409k and Admin expenses of $221k.

You are lucky I am on a diet ,just a water and a couple of mints will do me for dinner.....like the Entry fee and race book they are both free so its a cheap night for ya !

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Wat? I strike a nerve tasman? well, you make alot of assumptions, but given as yuh head is stuck firmly up yuh butt I would expect nothin less! and above all you completely missed the point! howzat for hoopla and holla! Puke was not the only area mentioned as to people unaware of this years Inters, and if you are only preachin to the converted how do you expect to grow interest outside? and by the way, where I am a member and or how I expend my time an energies (RaceCafe just happens to be me fav :rcfe-like:) is none of your fricken business; I am as entitled as anyone in here to have a say (offer observations) on whatever topic I choose (its a free country pal), and for your info I AM amongst it and have been for years!!!!

I personally don't give a rats patootie if there were entry charges! or race book charges! or parking charges! or whatever charges! in the past when they existed I paid em, it don't bother me either way! and that's the point, if your a loyal, ardent fan/enthusiast of whatever (am big fan of the V8s go every year) you'll do whatever it takes, yuh gotta let the public in general buy into it, inclusion.....standard advertisin strategy, target yuh market etc etc

 

Cheers Iraklis

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2 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

Mikie, my comment to stress the tight cash flow situation at the club was made from memory from what I took in at the AGM when the CFO went thru the accounts.The Racing account actually contributed $252k ,which was down from $627k in 2018. 

The main reason being the increased stakes which saw the club pay stakes out  which were $430k over and above what the Industry Funding for stakes was. Plus subsidies from HRNZ and NZ Sire stakes board for specific races was less too !

No mention of Pokie machines in the Racing Account !

The Pokies and TAB are lumped in with the Food and Beverage dept in the Trading account.

This account overall contributed $3.253 mil [ 2018 $3.716 ]

Food and beverage contributed over $1.1 mil while gaming and TAB contributed a combined total of $2.7 mil.

The $1.1 and $2.7 mil was before marketing expenses of $409k and Admin expenses of $221k.

You are lucky I am on a diet ,just a water and a couple of mints will do me for dinner.....like the Entry fee and race book they are both free so its a cheap night for ya !

I’m not conceding one iota Tasman Man until I have a look at the Accounts myself

if they can make $200k on Racing without cross subsidisation given their T/O’s they are geniuses, and making up whatever they are out of pocket on their building project, be it $40 million or $80 million, will be a walk in the park 

I’m pleased you’re such a cheap date!  I would’ve gone for the large T-bone with garlic butter and bugger the diabetes

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19 hours ago, Iraklis said:

Wat? I strike a nerve tasman? well, you make alot of assumptions, but given as yuh head is stuck firmly up yuh butt I would expect nothin less! and above all you completely missed the point! howzat for hoopla and holla! Puke was not the only area mentioned as to people unaware of this years Inters, and if you are only preachin to the converted how do you expect to grow interest outside? and by the way, where I am a member and or how I expend my time an energies (RaceCafe just happens to be me fav :rcfe-like:) is none of your fricken business; I am as entitled as anyone in here to have a say (offer observations) on whatever topic I choose (its a free country pal), and for your info I AM amongst it and have been for years!!!!

I personally don't give a rats patootie if there were entry charges! or race book charges! or parking charges! or whatever charges! in the past when they existed I paid em, it don't bother me either way! and that's the point, if your a loyal, ardent fan/enthusiast of whatever (am big fan of the V8s go every year) you'll do whatever it takes, yuh gotta let the public in general buy into it, inclusion.....standard advertisin strategy, target yuh market etc etc

 

Cheers Iraklis

You remind me of the old maxim.........It's better to remain silent and appear a fool , than speak and remove all doubt !

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18 hours ago, Mikie said:

I’m not conceding one iota Tasman Man until I have a look at the Accounts myself

if they can make $200k on Racing without cross subsidisation given their T/O’s they are geniuses, and making up whatever they are out of pocket on their building project, be it $40 million or $80 million, will be a walk in the park 

I’m pleased you’re such a cheap date!  I would’ve gone for the large T-bone with garlic butter and bugger the diabetes

The predicament they got into was because they tried to make racings future sustainable with non-racing activities and the rescue package is similarly based.....rental from property assets , possibly sell some land and continue their profitable food & beverage along with the gaming/TAB arm.

I'm no expert on the ins and out of the industry's funding but it's not totally related to betting commissions.

There is a National Industry Funding model so the club receives base funding for its stakes ......$7,993,038 in 2019 [ $8,033,416 in 2018 ] plus subsidies for major races from HRNZ and Sires Stakes board.

The club actually paid out more Stakes than the Industry funding.....$436k more in 2019 [ $258 more in 2018].

Other revenue comes from Sponsorship and other racing 'stuff'...some acceptance fees etc.

Expenditure includes Stakes , trophies ,drinks ,related Salaries and racing expenses.

It is this National Funding agreement which upsets some small clubs who believe they are hard done by !!

Galloping is the same........most snivel about Ellerslie.....again they actually add about $1 million per year to their Industry payout for stakes .They of course have a lot of Investments and assets so can comfortably afford it.

ATC currently really does need to watch their pennies.

Many Aussies who I spoke to at Interdoms were really impressed with NZ Harness Racing..they from Melbourne ,and commented the ATC facility so close to CBD ,was very impressive despite running the wrong way around.

IMO our big challenge in North is horse numbers and cost of participating.

All Harness enthusiasts need to support the ATC ,become members and get active.Too many cynics and critics !!!

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I agree with Tim Vince 95% of the time, because he's one of "us"

However I think the day of reckoning is nigh, when the additional funding that Group races gets needs to be trimmed a bit and reallocated to the 'ordinary' races

Not wiped, trimmed

Mikie

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Was I reading correctly that entry was free to the Interdom final and racebooks were free? Another thread on this forum mentions people paying $20 to get into Tauherenikau to watch a load of rubbish, and I paid $30 or more to get into NZ Cup Day at Riccarton and heaps more to get a seat in the stand, plus $5 for a racebook. I would start going to the trots instead if they could just get winning divis over $1.30.

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Well Tasman, a maxim you definitely should've stuck to!!! you've removed all doubt for me LOL....that said, perhaps instead of askin all the aussies you should've tried a little closer to home, after all they are the ones your makin a big shout out to now, and the ones your expectin to support ATC! your words 'All Harness enthusiasts need to support the ATC ,become members and get active' but, and here's the crux 'why should they'? what's in it for them? what, you think it's all gunna just happen cos you just said so? cmon think for chrissakes; and it aint a question of how great the facilities: they've never been in question, it's how great the advertisin of a major event in the area was or is? that was the point but summit you continually swerve.....this was a real opportunity to showcase Harness at its finest, and yuh would've had the place heavin, with not only the converted but newbies who would've been back for more 'if it had been sold(advertised) to them right'....you may not like what I'm sayin mate, but here's the thing, I aint the only one sayin it! critics and cynics are there to learn from! did you not know that?.....again standard in marketin and advertisin etc your thinkin of them as a negative when in actual fact they aint!

 

Cheers Iraklis

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On 12/16/2019 at 11:30 PM, tasman man 11 said:

Mikie, my comment to stress the tight cash flow situation at the club was made from memory from what I took in at the AGM when the CFO went thru the accounts.The Racing account actually contributed $252k ,which was down from $627k in 2018. 

The main reason being the increased stakes which saw the club pay stakes out  which were $430k over and above what the Industry Funding for stakes was. Plus subsidies from HRNZ and NZ Sire stakes board for specific races was less too !

No mention of Pokie machines in the Racing Account !

The Pokies and TAB are lumped in with the Food and Beverage dept in the Trading account.

This account overall contributed $3.253 mil [ 2018 $3.716 ]

Food and beverage contributed over $1.1 mil while gaming and TAB contributed a combined total of $2.7 mil.

The $1.1 and $2.7 mil was before marketing expenses of $409k and Admin expenses of $221k.

You are lucky I am on a diet ,just a water and a couple of mints will do me for dinner.....like the Entry fee and race book they are both free so its a cheap night for ya !

Love to know what they spent $400k on.......printing racebooks probably as they wouldn't know what advertising was.

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