RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Tauhei Notts

Racing Industry Bill

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4 hours ago, Red Rum said:

Most clubs would derive large portions of funding for stakes and integrity services from central, if that's the criteria how many left .Against that hundreds of hours free labour and no doubt some free materials maintaining the place over decades .

I saw a bit of Ellerslie yesterday , that looked a soulless empty shell yesterday .

The system is all clubs receive stake funding from NZTR but if racing is to grow that won't continue . You may be right about Ellerslie and that needs to improve but at least the tracks that have a population nearby are in with a chance of growing the industry .

If you are happy to see racing continue to fail then do nothing , that's fine with me but if you want more then change is a must . 

The bottom line is this clubs accountant has said this lot need to be propped up and it has been , the industry's reward for supporting them is zero , clearly those on the committee have no interest in helping racing survive and so they have effectively crapped on those who have supported them for many years .

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20 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

The system is all clubs receive stake funding from NZTR but if racing is to grow that won't continue . You may be right about Ellerslie and that needs to improve but at least the tracks that have a population nearby are in with a chance of growing the industry .

If you are happy to see racing continue to fail then do nothing , that's fine with me but if you want more then change is a must . 

The bottom line is this clubs accountant has said this lot need to be propped up and it has been , the industry's reward for supporting them is zero , clearly those on the committee have no interest in helping racing survive and so they have effectively crapped on those who have supported them for many years .

No one surely on these kind of sites wants racing to fail , it's what's being asked of each club . Are Hokitika and few others being asked to take one for the team without clear idea what the proceeds of giving up the land they have looked after for years is going to be spent on . If it's to bump the Derby Stake up a few hundred grand that would be unforgivable .What's the plan  on improving tracks , where's the all weather going , improved training centres ? Nothing with any clarity is being published. Maybe they looked and thought crikey they've dropped 50 mill of  new TAB website that's just OK but want few hundred K from us like it's going to save the industry .

The clubs cost or benefit would in fairness have to be looked at over many years , it may have been quite handy for industry in good days , all battling now so it's a harsh financial  test being imposed on it .

The intentions of original purchaser would have to be accounted for too. It may be that land was given over for community use not just racing . They have Rugby pitch in middle of Reefton , maybe Rugby has a claim on it if that goes , who knows a buyout clause,  could be anything on the land paperwork .

With respect to land on Coast , I like the place and people but  it's chicken feed compared to Avondale anyway unless iam missing something. Hokitika track area doesn't look like Des Res potential .

 

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26 minutes ago, Red Rum said:

No one surely on these kind of sites wants racing to fail , it's what's being asked of each club . Are Hokitika and few others being asked to take one for the team without clear idea what the proceeds of giving up the land they have looked after for years is going to be spent on . If it's to bump the Derby Stake up a few hundred grand that would be unforgivable .What's the plan  on improving tracks , where's the all weather going , improved training centres ? Nothing with any clarity is being published. Maybe they looked and thought crikey they've dropped 50 mill of  new TAB website that's just OK but want few hundred K from us like it's going to save the industry .

The clubs cost or benefit would in fairness have to be looked at over many years , it may have been quite handy for industry in good days , all battling now so it's a harsh financial  test being imposed on it .

The intentions of original purchaser would have to be accounted for too. It may be that land was given over for community use not just racing . They have Rugby pitch in middle of Reefton , maybe Rugby has a claim on it if that goes , who knows a buyout clause,  could be anything on the land paperwork .

With respect to land on Coast , I like the place and people but  it's chicken feed compared to Avondale anyway unless iam missing something. Hokitika track area doesn't look like Des Res potential .

 

Without rehashing all that has gone before - in a nutshell, the smaller clubs have been deprived of their share of betting revenue under an unfair funding schedule in order to prop up uneconomic larger clubs.

Many have had to suck up crap dates as well.

We all know the status quo is not an option,  but, bugger me, I can't for the life of me see this draconian approach working the oracle either.

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1 hour ago, tripple alliance said:

The system is all clubs receive stake funding from NZTR but if racing is to grow that won't continue . You may be right about Ellerslie and that needs to improve but at least the tracks that have a population nearby are in with a chance of growing the industry .

If you are happy to see racing continue to fail then do nothing , that's fine with me but if you want more then change is a must . 

The bottom line is this clubs accountant has said this lot need to be propped up and it has been , the industry's reward for supporting them is zero , clearly those on the committee have no interest in helping racing survive and so they have effectively crapped on those who have supported them for many years .

I haven't really wanted to get involved in this debate as it seems to be going nowhere. But really, I have no idea what your involvement in the industry is as you don't seem to have a deep understanding of how things work. The problem with NZ racing is not the small clubs, like Hokitika. The problem for very many years has been the poorly performing major clubs. How long do you think the benefits of selling off all the assets of the smaller clubs will last? My guess would be about two years before the metropolitan clubs piss it all up against the wall.

The whole thing about selling off the Hokitikas and Wintons is purely a distraction; it is just a case of certain people trying to look like they are doing something decisive, when really they don't have the faintest idea what to do.. I haven't seen a single report that has acknowledged that the biggest problem is the poorly performing major clubs. You wonder where some of these experts come from. Can you imagine the laughter in Aussie if someone suggested they close Goulburn and Cessnock to make Randwick and Rosehill boom. I like to think the ATC would have the decency to say "look, don't bother on our behalf". Interestingly, not a single major club in NZ has come out in favour of the small clubs.

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7 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I haven't really wanted to get involved in this debate as it seems to be going nowhere. But really, I have no idea what your involvement in the industry is as you don't seem to have a deep understanding of how things work. The problem with NZ racing is not the small clubs, like Hokitika. The problem for very many years has been the poorly performing major clubs. How long do you think the benefits of selling off all the assets of the smaller clubs will last? My guess would be about two years before the metropolitan clubs piss it all up against the wall.

The whole thing about selling off the Hokitikas and Wintons is purely a distraction; it is just a case of certain people trying to look like they are doing something decisive, when really they don't have the faintest idea what to do.. I haven't seen a single report that has acknowledged that the biggest problem is the poorly performing major clubs. You wonder where some of these experts come from. Can you imagine the laughter in Aussie if someone suggested they close Goulburn and Cessnock to make Randwick and Rosehill boom. I like to think the ATC would have the decency to say "look, don't bother on our behalf". Interestingly, not a single major club in NZ has come out in favour of the small clubs.

Good points.   I have heard many, many opinions from all sorts who nod sagely and intone that 'tracks need to be closed to take us forward ' ...but, when asked how that works,  I get vague assertions of costs.  I know several,  mainly volunteer-staffed clubs which have provided detailed financials that clearly show how little they cost.  The meeting payment of 37.5k that goes to every club across the board to run the meeting,  still goes with that club if it shifts venue - so that isn't saved,  is it?  ....and its only peanuts anyway, as is the value of some of the rural club lands.

The bottom line is revenue.  How closing tracks will increase punter losses beats me.  Messara identified a niche market given our time-slot,  and for this reason he pushed for a few modern,  high quality facilities to showcase our product at that time.  No argument there I don't think,  we all can accept that change needs to happen.  But this arse-about-face way of going just seems to me to be so counter-productive.

Pitty will agree with me here,  I know - there is nothing wrong with the Riccarton track in the summer when the going is not rain [ or irrigation ]  affected.  It is pretty reliable when the weather is stable.  Central, metropolitan,  ideal to start running races in that particular time-slot for off-course exposure .    So why aren't we doing it to see how it might work going forward ?  Is it smart to decimate our existing racing structure for a mere notion that this will be the game-changer?  ...and RITA,  or whatever it is going to call itself,  has to get its head around how thumping punters/betting operators with yet more taxes just aint gonna help,  long term.

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10 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

Without rehashing all that has gone before - in a nutshell, the smaller clubs have been deprived of their share of betting revenue under an unfair funding schedule in order to prop up uneconomic larger clubs.

Many have had to suck up crap dates as well.

We all know the status quo is not an option,  but, bugger me, I can't for the life of me see this draconian approach working the oracle either.

Agree about the status quo TA but shifting capital around within the industry if that proves possible does nothing to improve revenue. In fact it has significant costs.

It's a bit like shifting all the deck chairs to the high side of a lilting Titanic and getting people to sit up there. Only delays the inevitable. The ship is still going under.

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Hi all  , not sure if my imput is about the main subject , but a sign I had on my workshop wall which I think covers what we are talking about. "" The whipping will continue till moral improves"" Its from The Wizard of Id .Anyway as I have said before I'm only a punter and will leave the politics to more learned people on this site .I will be going to  meetings when I can over the holidays but then again come to think of it we are on one long holiday.Will be at tauherenikau on the 2nd ,we have a great day but the question has to be asked they charge $20 to get in which would be the most expensive on the holiday circuit under the umbrella of Xmas at the races  for families .Now there are 5 maiden races and the total stakes of $83000 for the day .Over the years they always say we are a small club and it goes towards upgrades and stakes . Really !! There will be even less TAB windows open I'd say 10 same old food stalls and the toilets will still need a good scrub .The Hitlers in white coats will tell us we can't sit were we have for years as it is now non drinking area and tell us doddery old fools to move unfortunately that will fall on deaf ears . Anyway back to the $20 entry say 10000 turn up thats $200000 !!!! .

Just to finish hi Pam your post on races in WA that your friend described was interesting ,I have been to many so called bush meetings in WA and NT and often camp on the race course .They are great fun with intertrack betting and always have big screen tv but I have never seen Black Fellas {a terrible aussie description] coming out of the bush to play two up. Why have they come out of the bush? Cheers BH

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8 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Hi all  , not sure if my imput is about the main subject , but a sign I had on my workshop wall which I think covers what we are talking about. "" The whipping will continue till moral improves"" Its from The Wizard of Id .Anyway as I have said before I'm only a punter and will leave the politics to more learned people on this site .I will be going to  meetings when I can over the holidays but then again come to think of it we are on one long holiday.Will be at tauherenikau on the 2nd ,we have a great day but the question has to be asked they charge $20 to get in which would be the most expensive on the holiday circuit under the umbrella of Xmas at the races  for families .Now there are 5 maiden races and the total stakes of $83000 for the day .Over the years they always say we are a small club and it goes towards upgrades and stakes . Really !! There will be even less TAB windows open I'd say 10 same old food stalls and the toilets will still need a good scrub .The Hitlers in white coats will tell us we can't sit were we have for years as it is now non drinking area and tell us doddery old fools to move unfortunately that will fall on deaf ears . Anyway back to the $20 entry say 10000 turn up thats $200000 !!!! .

Just to finish hi Pam your post on races in WA that your friend described was interesting ,I have been to many so called bush meetings in WA and NT and often camp on the race course .They are great fun with intertrack betting and always have big screen tv but I have never seen Black Fellas {a terrible aussie description] coming out of the bush to play two up. Why have they come out of the bush? Cheers BH

Boss Hogg , don't be fooled , "" it goes towards upgrades and stakes "" , track upgrades maybe but certainly not towards stakes , the norm is all stake money for any meeting is supplied by NZTR  and if a club can get a sponsor  the club keeps the sponsorship money , rarely will small clubs  add the sponsorship money to the stake .

 

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Hi T A yeah I understand that ,that is what I am questioning ,say in the last 5 years for example @ $20 ahead normally between 12 and 15,000 last couple crowds have been down although most clubs would love 10000  . Thats over $1000000 thru the gate thats not a bad earner even Ellerslie would think thats good. So  they did some work at the turn last year but what other improvements? Members stand has a couple of new windows doesnt seem to add up to 1 Mill ?  Cheers BH

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5 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Hi T A yeah I understand that ,that is what I am questioning ,say in the last 5 years for example @ $20 ahead normally between 12 and 15,000 last couple crowds have been down although most clubs would love 10000  . Thats over $1000000 thru the gate thats not a bad earner even Ellerslie would think thats good. So  they did some work at the turn last year but what other improvements? Members stand has a couple of new windows doesnt seem to add up to 1 Mill ?  Cheers BH

You are quite correct Hogg. $20 to get in to watch rubbish is a very poor look. Unfortunately if the club was to spend $50,000 of their own money and boost stakes by $5,000 a race I doubt it would have any impact on fields at all. Within quite a wide range trainers aren't really influenced by stakes levels at all. And it does seem very unfair that one club randomly gets $22,500 to run a rating 65 whereas a less favoured club would have to contribute $12,500 of its own money to get to that level, and more for 72s and 82s, and no one would really appreciate the effort they have put in. So it is hardly surprising that mediocrity rules.

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2 hours ago, Boss Hogg said:

 

Just to finish hi Pam your post on races in WA that your friend described was interesting ,I have been to many so called bush meetings in WA and NT and often camp on the race course .They are great fun with intertrack betting and always have big screen tv but I have never seen Black Fellas {a terrible aussie description] coming out of the bush to play two up. Why have they come out of the bush? Cheers BH

I did have a moment's reflection about the   ' correctness '  of quoting her accurately  - that is what she said,  so I went with it.

As for why they arrived later,  maybe  some were working on neighbouring properties and only managed to arrive at the end of the day ?  no idea,  but as I said,  I repeated as quoted.

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15 minutes ago, Contentious said:

The selling of land! -

The Wellington Racing Club has sold a heap of land over the past 20 odd years - was that just to stay afloat?

No more to sell so what do they do? - Oh yeah sell someone else's land! 

Who do you think props the Messara report?

Yes and when the WRC went broke the Treasurer was none other than J Fokerd who was some months ago suspended by The Accountants  Society.  

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20 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I haven't really wanted to get involved in this debate as it seems to be going nowhere. But really, I have no idea what your involvement in the industry is as you don't seem to have a deep understanding of how things work. The problem with NZ racing is not the small clubs, like Hokitika. The problem for very many years has been the poorly performing major clubs. How long do you think the benefits of selling off all the assets of the smaller clubs will last? My guess would be about two years before the metropolitan clubs piss it all up against the wall.

The whole thing about selling off the Hokitikas and Wintons is purely a distraction; it is just a case of certain people trying to look like they are doing something decisive, when really they don't have the faintest idea what to do.. I haven't seen a single report that has acknowledged that the biggest problem is the poorly performing major clubs. You wonder where some of these experts come from. Can you imagine the laughter in Aussie if someone suggested they close Goulburn and Cessnock to make Randwick and Rosehill boom. I like to think the ATC would have the decency to say "look, don't bother on our behalf". Interestingly, not a single major club in NZ has come out in favour of the small clubs.

Or some of the bigger trainers and even Des Coppins hints about closing smaller clubs on his radio show yet he admits he hasn’t even travelled 3 hours north of his base to sample some of the smaller country clubs . Makes you wonder alright .

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1 hour ago, puha said:

Or some of the bigger trainers and even Des Coppins hints about closing smaller clubs on his radio show yet he admits he hasn’t even travelled 3 hours north of his base to sample some of the smaller country clubs . Makes you wonder alright .

No wondering at all , many of these outa the way facility's at these tracks are not up to scratch , why would you go there , the facility's are 80/100 years old , the bora holding hands is what's holding some of the buildings together , how the hell are you going to build an industry asking people to use facility's that are so out of date , young people won't wear it , close them down and upgrade the facility's at tracks where people live .

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14 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

No wondering at all , many of these outa the way facility's at these tracks are not up to scratch , why would you go there , the facility's are 80/100 years old , the bora holding hands is what's holding some of the buildings together , how the hell are you going to build an industry asking people to use facility's that are so out of date , young people won't wear it , close them down and upgrade the facility's at tracks where people live .

You are out of touch still I won’t hold that against you as it’s easy to see your here solely  to get a reaction .

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57 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

No wondering at all , many of these outa the way facility's at these tracks are not up to scratch , why would you go there , the facility's are 80/100 years old , the bora holding hands is what's holding some of the buildings together , how the hell are you going to build an industry asking people to use facility's that are so out of date , young people won't wear it , close them down and upgrade the facility's at tracks where people live .

What do you think of the fact that the self funded Tapanui Cup this weekend at $55,000 is worth $20,000 more than anything at the industry funded Te Rapa. Which club is the parasite?

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Just as an aside, back in 1987 the Waikato Cup was worth $120,000 and the Tapanui Cup was worth $8,000. $100,000 and $55,000 respectively this year. At this rate the Tapanui Cup will be worth more than the Waikato Cup by about 2023. Which club is on the rise and which one is going backwards?

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I will add my 2 Pennith worth to this thread.

The RIB took away the incentives for clubs to make money for themselves by the re rating of the betting levies they supplied to clubs. All clubs were provided with a descriptive grade, as a course, and they were then provided with a set % revenue on course betting return dependant on the rating of the meeting they staged. Exampled by Auckland, Wgtn and Chch effectively having their premier meeting betting revenue grades assured and received a BENEFICIAL level of betting commission as opposed to the smaller clubs, West Coast or elsewhere, who provided the backbone of free labour input willingly to help their community racing effort.

So you would end up having venue rated industry clubs, stage industry days where they are effectively ghost race meetings, just there to implement betting turnover. Stiassny wanted Monday racing to fit a market that’s didn’t even exist, by using the industry grade model. A proven failure, at a great cost to internal resources.  

The promising ACA student that created this rating model had a frontal lobotomy when he left college. The outcome was always predictable. No incentive for the Committee members of clubs to seek and provide race sponsors and continue the input for anything other than premier days because you are always going to get a set fee to cover your staging expenses. Such a platform is no incentive to get new sponsors and new attendees as their is absolutely no benefit to the club to put in that effort.

Clubs need incentives to stage their events. Always have done, always will do, that is the nature of free enterprise. Be it for local community spirit and inputs that generate the appropriate attendances they should be rewarded for their efforts and a better betting percentage of the oncourse betting dollar. If that incentive was provided again, then greater returns on the investment of time and effort would also lead to an upgrade in facilities and attendances and also betting turnover.

The Racing Ministers plan to capitalise industry assets that it does not own is sheer communist theft and needs to be pushed back to the utmost level. If the industry needs that level of funding from asset sales, let the new regimes being planned,  go and talk to the major financial lending resource suppliers and they will soon learn how to run a business well. Rather than idiots we have had for the last decade or any government plonkers at the DIA that could not run a fundraising raffle for a chicken in the public bar of a pub. Trying to create a Government statute to take away venues that do not belong to them, is complete lunacy and treacherous behaviour and thinking. It is truly appalling to even be thinking that way. IMO

  

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11 hours ago, tripple alliance said:

No wondering at all , many of these outa the way facility's at these tracks are not up to scratch , why would you go there , the facility's are 80/100 years old , the bora holding hands is what's holding some of the buildings together , how the hell are you going to build an industry asking people to use facility's that are so out of date , young people won't wear it , close them down and upgrade the facility's at tracks where people live .

and yet thousands do go and don't worry about the facilities. The facilities are a side show and don't mean as much as you're making out, whats really important is the state and type of track thats available. One that provides competitive , consistent and fair racing.

What concerns me is just how boring,flat and soul less attending some of these meetings at these larger clubs has become , no atmosphere a race meeting with a fabricated party and with racing as a side dish. It's becoming a homogenised product ,with no character,no variety no point of difference, the common man is being excluded even isolated from racing in this country.

  I've attended many meetings for years but now have no urge to go or in fact even watch the races in NZ . I wonder out loud if that's being reflected across the board in NZ? If it is that is a real worry and these changes about to take place will only make it worse.

I can only imagine if racing on synthetic dirt or whatever its called makes its way in NZ , well yippee ki yay a new level of boring racing will be reached in this country.

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13 hours ago, puha said:

Or some of the bigger trainers and even Des Coppins hints about closing smaller clubs on his radio show yet he admits he hasn’t even travelled 3 hours north of his base to sample some of the smaller country clubs . Makes you wonder alright .

and yet he goes on and on about how great country clubs are on his Sunday morning show and how good the attendance is, the point is these types of guys and there are many operating clubs as well no full well that they will have to be accountable for their efforts and performance if they don't get the freebies from the sale of land venues that are being proposed.

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On 12/17/2019 at 9:22 PM, We're Doomed said:

What do you think of the fact that the self funded Tapanui Cup this weekend at $55,000 is worth $20,000 more than anything at the industry funded Te Rapa. Which club is the parasite?

`Parasite? Or beneficiary?

 

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