shaneMcAlister 1,425 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 From the top 10 lots at Karaka for the past 5 years: One horse has won its purchase price back, Long Leaf. No horse has won more than 4 races 29 horses have won 1 or less races Average cost $735,400 average stakes won $102,387. Average races won 1.94. * This does not include stallion or mare value end of race career. AUD and NZD could be mixed, but immaterial. Red Rum 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crustyngrizzly 1,700 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 2014 Fastdane Rocky won a couple of trials ,favourite for the Karaka a few weeks out and then disappeared. Something wrong with hoof. 800K was the purchase price and i am pretty sure the Hogans were in the ownership,so would 800k have actually changed hands or would it have been minus the retained shares,? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiknsmack 486 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Heroic Valour got close to earning his purchase price back, and is now at stud in Australia. Queen of Diamonds would be worth heaps more now than what she sold for. Huey and shaneMcAlister 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneMcAlister 1,425 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, chiknsmack said: Heroic Valour got close to earning his purchase price back, and is now at stud in Australia. Queen of Diamonds would be worth heaps more now than what she sold for. This is just cost v track earnings. Ignores residual value. Also costs here exclude all training costs etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus 9 524 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, crustyngrizzly said: 2014 Fastdane Rocky won a couple of trials ,favourite for the Karaka a few weeks out and then disappeared. Something wrong with hoof. 800K was the purchase price and i am pretty sure the Hogans were in the ownership,so would 800k have actually changed hands or would it have been minus the retained shares,? I think sadly he died. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjay 451 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Makes depressing reading. The only happy people would be the under bidders, thanks Shane shaneMcAlister, GOM and flockofewes2 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukkledragga 229 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 2 hours ago, shaneMcAlister said: This is just cost v track earnings. Ignores residual value. Also costs here exclude all training costs etc The average earnings of all horses according to my 10 y old copy of turf register is under 10 k so the average at the top end is 10 times better but still hard reading any way you slice it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz (NZ) 1,722 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Take out Long Leaf's Karaka Million Classic win and its even worse reading! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Maybe one of the 2018 bunch could have a go at the Bonecrusher stakes, only 5 noms , track too hard too much racing on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby3051 10,869 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Shane has become SD's mouthpiece so it seems... shaneMcAlister 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,855 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Quite enlightening isn't it. Of course no one could expect a high priced purchase to cover its purchase price racing solely in NZ. MiDeBo Racing 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Is gst added for nz purchasers.good money for government,the way to get a small fortune is to start with a large one.u can't put a price on sport.go to westhaven.they don't pay their way. Fortunes spent on golf fishing etc. High priced horses mostly a flop .It's the nature of the game.if u enjoy and want to have a crackyou can.i think there has been some shonky goings on in the past at auctions but hopefully it is a clean game now. No rules bonecrusher 3250.but no one has a gun to their head and syndicates seem tightly managed.not my cup of tea but good luck.spend your discretionary income how u want.read the disclosures and good luck..ive races well over 100 horses.the good the bad the ugly .It's an inexact science but no one tries to buy a slow horse? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider 3,947 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 3 hours ago, tim vince said: It's an inexact science but no one tries to buy a slow horse? Maybe they should! Their results might be slightly better! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukkledragga 229 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Insider said: Maybe they should! Their results might be slightly better! According to my 10 yo copy of turf register ,jumpers earnings are way better per year than flat horses, maybe you are on to something. shaneMcAlister 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneMcAlister 1,425 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 I choose this level as well below average and always felt value to be had in this range (even though I could not afford 1% of this range). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 So here we are, about 7 weeks away from NZ’s National Thoroughbred Sales at Karaka, and we have so called “horse people”, people who love their horse racing, doing everything they can to highlight the negatives of the Industry! Sometimes I wonder if some of you are part of the loony brigade, the anti-horse racing lunatic fringe! Why don’t you do something positive and put up some of the “thousands” of positives that make up the Racing Industry”. Everyone is aware that buying a horse is like buying a Lotto ticket. If you see it in a negative way, just don’t get involved! But why put the boot in on those that are involved and do your best to discourage people from buying into a horse at the Karaka sales coming up? There are thousands of stories of people having the fun of horse ownership. Of going along to morning trackwork, getting excited on Raceday, disappointed with a bad run etc. but they love it and the chance to watch their horse win. There are no guarantees and there are great moments and great disappointments. But why put the boot in at a time the Industry needs all the help it can get. I’m betting that someone will buy a cheapish Book 3 pony that will bring great joy and maybe prosperity in G1 glory in the future. Will it be you? We're Doomed and ADM 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneMcAlister 1,425 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Trump said: So here we are, about 7 weeks away from NZ’s National Thoroughbred Sales at Karaka, and we have so called “horse people”, people who love their horse racing, doing everything they can to highlight the negatives of the Industry! Sometimes I wonder if some of you are part of the loony brigade, the anti-horse racing lunatic fringe! Why don’t you do something positive and put up some of the “thousands” of positives that make up the Racing Industry”. Everyone is aware that buying a horse is like buying a Lotto ticket. If you see it in a negative way, just don’t get involved! But why put the boot in on those that are involved and do your best to discourage people from buying into a horse at the Karaka sales coming up? There are thousands of stories of people having the fun of horse ownership. Of going along to morning trackwork, getting excited on Raceday, disappointed with a bad run etc. but they love it and the chance to watch their horse win. There are no guarantees and there are great moments and great disappointments. But why put the boot in at a time the Industry needs all the help it can get. I’m betting that someone will buy a cheapish Book 3 pony that will bring great joy and maybe prosperity in G1 glory in the future. Will it be you? Trump, I hope its me :-), I try every year to get involved in a new horse as I live for this game. What I was showing was that value/success can be got down the chain. I show this to my friends to explain you don't have to be involved in the most expensive horse to get wins. The better chance of a return is further down the chain in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOM 1,017 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Trump, you can hardly call someone who is telling the truth and pointing out some very pertinent and interesting facts ' part of the loony brigade" in fact the oppos 33 minutes ago, Trump said: So here we are, about 7 weeks away from NZ’s National Thoroughbred Sales at Karaka, and we have so called “horse people”, people who love their horse racing, doing everything they can to highlight the negatives of the Industry! Sometimes I wonder if some of you are part of the loony brigade, the anti-horse racing lunatic fringe! Why don’t you do something positive and put up some of the “thousands” of positives that make up the Racing Industry”. Everyone is aware that buying a horse is like buying a Lotto ticket. If you see it in a negative way, just don’t get involved! But why put the boot in on those that are involved and do your best to discourage people from buying into a horse at the Karaka sales coming up? There are thousands of stories of people having the fun of horse ownership. Of going along to morning trackwork, getting excited on Raceday, disappointed with a bad run etc. but they love it and the chance to watch their horse win. There are no guarantees and there are great moments and great disappointments. But why put the boot in at a time the Industry needs all the help it can get. I’m betting that someone will buy a cheapish Book 3 pony that will bring great joy and maybe prosperity in G1 glory in the future. Will it be you? Trump, you can hardly call a comment that is truthful, pertinent and interesting to people involved in the sport "part of the loony brigade" and part of the anti horse lunatic fringe. I think your post qualifies for that tag more than Shane's post All it does is point out that no matter how much money one has to fling around there is no guarantee that it is going to result in a better return than the realist at the other end of the spectrum. Surely that is more likely to encourage people to have a go Leggy and shaneMcAlister 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crustyngrizzly 1,700 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 Horses or shares or property I know which i would like to invest in but i won't be,however if the other 2 take off then i might but then again i might not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 33 minutes ago, GOM said: Trump, you can hardly call someone who is telling the truth and pointing out some very pertinent and interesting facts ' part of the loony brigade" in fact the oppos Trump, you can hardly call a comment that is truthful, pertinent and interesting to people involved in the sport "part of the loony brigade" and part of the anti horse lunatic fringe. I think your post qualifies for that tag more than Shane's post All it does is point out that no matter how much money one has to fling around there is no guarantee that it is going to result in a better return than the realist at the other end of the spectrum. Surely that is more likely to encourage people to have a go Then why not balance their negative viewpoint and put up some of the positives. The cheaper buys that went on to win big races in Australia and NZ. Those that were pinhooked and onsold for big profits? Many of the yearlings sold at Karaka will be onsold to HK for big money. The sale price should go into the equation I would think? The negative slant put on TA’s marketing and promotion is an example of negativity that does the Industry no good. There are plenty of stories of success from the syndication of racehorses and there are failures. Redzel comes to mind - as the best success. I’ve never gone into a TA syndicate nor have I had a horse trained by their Trainers. I was invited once and politely declined. It wasn’t my thing. But my niece’s experience with GINGERNUTS, a $55k (approx) syndicated TA horse that won the NZ Derby is a positive and one they should highlight. People buy Toyota cars despite the millions of them having been recalled for defects. Toyota don’t highlight the recalls do they? But people still buy Toyota’s and Toyota still market how good their cars are. Which they are imho. talk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby3051 10,869 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 shaneMcAlister and dock leaf 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted December 3, 2019 What about the colts that stop racing early to go to stud? Sacred Falls won 2 Doncasters and altho now deceased, surely his earnings from stallion fees should be added to his tally? Usually, it’s the blue bloods that occupy the top priced lots due to their possible life as a stallion. There’s not going to be any stallions to come out of the bottom priced lots imho. So really, it’s not just racetrack earnings but also stud earnings that should be added. Darci Brahma comes to mind. Hate to think how much in Stallion Fees he’s earnt! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk 1,317 Report post Posted December 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Trump said: What about the colts that stop racing early to go to stud? Sacred Falls won 2 Doncasters and altho now deceased, surely his earnings from stallion fees should be added to his tally? Usually, it’s the blue bloods that occupy the top priced lots due to their possible life as a stallion. There’s not going to be any stallions to come out of the bottom priced lots imho. So really, it’s not just racetrack earnings but also stud earnings that should be added. Darci Brahma comes to mind. Hate to think how much in Stallion Fees he’s earnt! The flip to the coin is when the "stallion prospects" find their way to the bush tracks in Australia in a gelded state. Looking at Breednet it would seem embarrassing having a $1000 yearling defeat a $1m yearling. Today Rome ( Pierro-Dancecard ) runs at Gosford first start after being gelded. Be interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted December 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Trump said: Then why not balance their negative viewpoint and put up some of the positives. The cheaper buys that went on to win big races in Australia and NZ. Those that were pinhooked and onsold for big profits? Many of the yearlings sold at Karaka will be onsold to HK for big money. The sale price should go into the equation I would think? The negative slant put on TA’s marketing and promotion is an example of negativity that does the Industry no good. There are plenty of stories of success from the syndication of racehorses and there are failures. Redzel comes to mind - as the best success. I’ve never gone into a TA syndicate nor have I had a horse trained by their Trainers. I was invited once and politely declined. It wasn’t my thing. But my niece’s experience with GINGERNUTS, a $55k (approx) syndicated TA horse that won the NZ Derby is a positive and one they should highlight. People buy Toyota cars despite the millions of them having been recalled for defects. Toyota don’t highlight the recalls do they? But people still buy Toyota’s and Toyota still market how good their cars are. Which they are imho. They do highlight the recalls , they have to sometimes in order to make drivers aware of the recall of the defective vehicles , in fact ive seen companies not imited to vehicle manufacturers ordering recalls taking out full page ads to make people aware .It cannot be hidden . Of course it's not in their glossy adverts for new vehicles . The spreadsheets put up are the figures , would you have them hidden . If a family or friend approached you as someone with clear in depth knowledge of industry , would you highlight these figures . A earlier post mentioned 30 mill plus stallion syndications , how many such syndications have occurred from NZ raced horses trained horses or Karaka sold horses in last decade ? . Not many would be my guess . I'd advise family or friends , lease to start at low end and decide from there how you like it , then move on up once you get a feel for it and learn the economics , what the yards talking about , etc etc .Would anyone say that's bad advice or negative to the industry . A learner driver don't buy a Ferrari if any sense . I would guess some of those breeding syndicates have breeding people in, tax write offs and of course if some met with misfortune any insurance payouts cut cost. On subject of breeding syndicates, I still cannot work out why the balls come off so quick here , is it that they cannot house colts and fillies far enough apart. Gosden , O"Brien Fabre , Stoute how many geldings in their yards , bugger all would be that answer .Lethal, balls gone 2k in bank , limited ability , that's dead money by looks of it . Again , Jamie Richards , top trainer , TA got runs on board , beautiful horses, iam sure they have provided lifelong memories for many , it's not a dig it's the cold hard economics of the industry , why hide it and hope it's different when you look under carpet in a year . Stakes are not doubling . dock leaf 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggy 4,076 Report post Posted December 4, 2019 15 minutes ago, Red Rum said: Stakes are not doubling . Halving would you guess? Unless they rob a bank, the taxpayer, the poor or community clubs. I'm not sure even that is sustainable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...