Overcheck

Tote Place Divs.

19 posts in this topic

It appears that the dividends on the graphics on the left hand side of the screen and also along the bottom are FF dividends with the win tote dividend only showing on the left. Races today so far have not been involved in pay back or place paying to 4th so therefore if you have tv only you do not know what the tote place dividends are. Obviously the TAB do not want betting for a place on the tote which are often better than the miserable FF ones. Just another way to drive customers away. This is happening today with the dogs, gallops and trots.

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On further reflection it appears that as the TAB's profit is bigger on the FF bets ( I think I am right) they are trying to make everyone back that way rather than on the tote. This way they can control the market and keep odds ridiculously low. As I said above it will drive place betters away. Sure it is a problem only if you do not have a computer, but there are still a lot of older customers out there who deserve a fair go for in many cases their lifelong support of the industry.

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27 minutes ago, Overcheck said:

On further reflection it appears that as the TAB's profit is bigger on the FF bets ( I think I am right) they are trying to make everyone back that way rather than on the tote. This way they can control the market and keep odds ridiculously low. As I said above it will drive place betters away. Sure it is a problem only if you do not have a computer, but there are still a lot of older customers out there who deserve a fair go for in many cases their lifelong support of the industry.

Down at the local pub, saw a fine looking horse at Albion Park paying nearly 9 dollars a win, 5 ew was the bet. race started and went to the front with 8.80 beside his name. one lap later. it went down to 2.80, horse won and paid 2.60 and 1.20, ripped of I feel but thats our TAB, last bet I had and that was 9 months ago

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9 minutes ago, One more lap said:

Down at the local pub, saw a fine looking horse at Albion Park paying nearly 9 dollars a win, 5 ew was the bet. race started and went to the front with 8.80 beside his name. one lap later. it went down to 2.80, horse won and paid 2.60 and 1.20, ripped of I feel but thats our TAB, last bet I had and that was 9 months ago

….. and how many more like you have had enough? Going by turnover I think a lot of punters are shifting to sports betting.

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Perhaps if you both understood how the different types of bet options operate especially the tote then you might care to revise what you have said.

The average TAB takeout rate on Final Field bets is around 5-6% (or it used to be) and is not a guaranteed return. The takeout rates on tote products is around 3-4 times higher and IS a guaranteed return so why the TAB would encourage FInal Field place bets over tote isn't plausible.

Example - Punter 1 places $20 FF place bet on a horse paying $2FFP - The TAB gets $1.20 from the bet (if FF takeout rate is 6%) once placed. If the bets loses then the TAB gets your whole $20 and makes $20. If the horse is successful then the punter gets $40 and the TAB gets their $1.20 and loses $38.80 on the bet - a major negative return.

Tote - Punter places same bet on the tote - TAB gets 14.25% of every $1 on commingled pools so TAB gets a guaranteed $2.85 - the balance of your $20 bet goes into the pool to make up the place dividend pool which determines what your horse ultimately pays if successful - as the TAB pays out every $1 in that pool it doesn't win extra if your bet is unsuccessful nor does it lose anything if it comes in - it gets its guaranteed $2.85.

A better result on the whole on most occasions - so why would TAB want to discourage this - I think not.

As for the bet changing odds from $9 to $2.80 - are you new to betting or do you not understand how a tote works??????

If it was a minor Aussie harness meeting there was probably less than $1k in the tote win pool when your saw the horse and maybe $12-$15k when it closed.

If the horse you saw was well favoured (and 80% of betting occurs in the last 30seconds before race close) then it's pretty easy to see how the odds changed as the weight of money dragged it down - the fact that movement didn't show for about a minute after the race started is purely due to the time the TAB systems take to calculate the dividend movements based on that late money taken - which normally takes time.

Hope that helps you both

 

 

Edited by Blind Squirrel
error

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This was an "experiment" and they reckon if punters want this way it will become permanent.     It has obviously been done with many of the reasons expressed in here by posters in mind and of course we know TAB are looking to eventually do away with the tote and just go on fixed odds payouts.    Of course, if punters don't want this innovation the TAB will just say tough this is what you gunna get so looks like we have got to like it or lump it.     Don't you just love monopolies!

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9 hours ago, Blind Squirrel said:

Perhaps if you both understood how the different types of bet options operate especially the tote then you might care to revise what you have said.

The average TAB takeout rate on Final Field bets is around 5-6% (or it used to be) and is not a guaranteed return. The takeout rates on tote products is around 3-4 times higher and IS a guaranteed return so why the TAB would encourage FInal Field place bets over tote isn't plausible.

Example - Punter 1 places $20 FF place bet on a horse paying $2FFP - The TAB gets $1.20 from the bet (if FF takeout rate is 6%) once placed. If the bets loses then the TAB gets your whole $20 and makes $20. If the horse is successful then the punter gets $40 and the TAB gets their $1.20 and loses $38.80 on the bet - a major negative return.

Tote - Punter places same bet on the tote - TAB gets 14.25% of every $1 on commingled pools so TAB gets a guaranteed $2.85 - the balance of your $20 bet goes into the pool to make up the place dividend pool which determines what your horse ultimately pays if successful - as the TAB pays out every $1 in that pool it doesn't win extra if your bet is unsuccessful nor does it lose anything if it comes in - it gets its guaranteed $2.85.

A better result on the whole on most occasions - so why would TAB want to discourage this - I think not.

As for the bet changing odds from $9 to $2.80 - are you new to betting or do you not understand how a tote works??????

If it was a minor Aussie harness meeting there was probably less than $1k in the tote win pool when your saw the horse and maybe $12-$15k when it closed.

If the horse you saw was well favoured (and 80% of betting occurs in the last 30seconds before race close) then it's pretty easy to see how the odds changed as the weight of money dragged it down - the fact that movement didn't show for about a minute after the race started is purely due to the time the TAB systems take to calculate the dividend movements based on that late money taken - which normally takes time.

Hope that helps you both

 

 

Biggest egg on face post of all time. Maligns others for having no understanding yet shows zero themself!

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14 hours ago, Blind Squirrel said:

Perhaps if you both understood how the different types of bet options operate especially the tote then you might care to revise what you have said.

The average TAB takeout rate on Final Field bets is around 5-6% (or it used to be) and is not a guaranteed return. The takeout rates on tote products is around 3-4 times higher and IS a guaranteed return so why the TAB would encourage FInal Field place bets over tote isn't plausible.

Example - Punter 1 places $20 FF place bet on a horse paying $2FFP - The TAB gets $1.20 from the bet (if FF takeout rate is 6%) once placed. If the bets loses then the TAB gets your whole $20 and makes $20. If the horse is successful then the punter gets $40 and the TAB gets their $1.20 and loses $38.80 on the bet - a major negative return.

Tote - Punter places same bet on the tote - TAB gets 14.25% of every $1 on commingled pools so TAB gets a guaranteed $2.85 - the balance of your $20 bet goes into the pool to make up the place dividend pool which determines what your horse ultimately pays if successful - as the TAB pays out every $1 in that pool it doesn't win extra if your bet is unsuccessful nor does it lose anything if it comes in - it gets its guaranteed $2.85.

A better result on the whole on most occasions - so why would TAB want to discourage this - I think not.

As for the bet changing odds from $9 to $2.80 - are you new to betting or do you not understand how a tote works??????

If it was a minor Aussie harness meeting there was probably less than $1k in the tote win pool when your saw the horse and maybe $12-$15k when it closed.

If the horse you saw was well favoured (and 80% of betting occurs in the last 30seconds before race close) then it's pretty easy to see how the odds changed as the weight of money dragged it down - the fact that movement didn't show for about a minute after the race started is purely due to the time the TAB systems take to calculate the dividend movements based on that late money taken - which normally takes time.

Hope that helps you both

 

 

Blind Squirrel, your rather condescending reply remains "blind" to the main fact of my posts is that unless you have a computer you do not know what the place dividends are. To One more lap's post there is a hell of a lot of dividend reductions half way through a race well after the 7 second tv delay from when betting is closed. When betting is closed then it should be closed. You would of course say the TAB wouldn't be up to anything, or would they?

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16 hours ago, Overcheck said:

….. and how many more like you have had enough? Going by turnover I think a lot of punters are shifting to sports betting.

Or offshore operators. There is plenty off them and they like adding value to your account

 

Greg

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Re SMD - if you think there is no take out of a Fixed odds bet then I believe you are wrong sorry. Just ask the TAB although I'm sure someone else on here can advise me if that is correct

Overcheck - it is not the TV 7 second delay it is the delay in dividend refresh which is 30-40 seconds. Also what about the scroll at the bottom of the TV screen that shows win and place divs - tote win and place??

Seems to me that everyone is a conspiracy theorist these days

 

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Showing the Top3 odds for NZ is long overdue, they have been showing Top3 for racing in other countries for some time.  As the Squirrel says, the tote place odds are hopelessly unreliable with so much money being bet late, and even worse if the hotty is showing 60c for a place.  With Top3 if you like one showing $2 with 30 sec to go, you get the $2 - and it is Top3 so you dont have to worry about the two divvy race crap.  And if you're into the real shorties, the $1.30 will not collapse into $1.

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Unlike some others I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong.

There is no fixed takeout from a Final Field bet rather it is the market % that sets an "effective" takeout rate for that market - 

I believe my other points are valid - no matter how condescendingly they were made "petals"

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To my recollection, the odds shown on the side of the screen are FF odds for win and place and tote odds for win. The odds shown at the bottom of the screen which are displayed in rotation are the each way odds for tote bets. I am glad you corrected yourself squirrel. The FF odds are based on the same process as a bookie whereby the calcilate on an overall basis to attempt to ensure an overall profit foe each race. Sometimes their profit is less than anticipated and sometimes it is greater. Very seldom do they make a loss.

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3 hours ago, Blind Squirrel said:

Re SMD - if you think there is no take out of a Fixed odds bet then I believe you are wrong sorry. Just ask the TAB although I'm sure someone else on here can advise me if that is correct

Overcheck - it is not the TV 7 second delay it is the delay in dividend refresh which is 30-40 seconds. Also what about the scroll at the bottom of the TV screen that shows win and place divs - tote win and place??

Seems to me that everyone is a conspiracy theorist these days

 

I think you had better check the dividends along the bottom of the screen and you will see they are the FF divies. That is why I made my initial post. 

 

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On 11/15/2019 at 6:51 PM, Overcheck said:

On further reflection it appears that as the TAB's profit is bigger on the FF bets ( I think I am right) they are trying to make everyone back that way rather than on the tote. This way they can control the market and keep odds ridiculously low. As I said above it will drive place betters away. Sure it is a problem only if you do not have a computer, but there are still a lot of older customers out there who deserve a fair go for in many cases their lifelong support of the industry.

I think that the radio trackside are given out the Fixed Odds prices too.

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Anyone else find that when you click on a bet and add it to betslip the price invariably goes down at that very moment, now I know what your thinking, you win some you lose some, but seriously i never seem to click on a price and then it magically goes up..if it changes its down! The other day I clicked on a price, $6 , then it changed to 5.50 in front of my eyes, now this was at 10am 4 hours before jump!! I decided, bugger this not taking it now, then check a little later back to $6..?? No sign of a fluctuation either..

Anyone else?

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On 11/15/2019 at 8:10 PM, Blind Squirrel said:

Perhaps if you both understood how the different types of bet options operate especially the tote then you might care to revise what you have said.

The average TAB takeout rate on Final Field bets is around 5-6% (or it used to be) and is not a guaranteed return. The takeout rates on tote products is around 3-4 times higher and IS a guaranteed return so why the TAB would encourage FInal Field place bets over tote isn't plausible.

Example - Punter 1 places $20 FF place bet on a horse paying $2FFP - The TAB gets $1.20 from the bet (if FF takeout rate is 6%) once placed. If the bets loses then the TAB gets your whole $20 and makes $20. If the horse is successful then the punter gets $40 and the TAB gets their $1.20 and loses $38.80 on the bet - a major negative return.

Tote - Punter places same bet on the tote - TAB gets 14.25% of every $1 on commingled pools so TAB gets a guaranteed $2.85 - the balance of your $20 bet goes into the pool to make up the place dividend pool which determines what your horse ultimately pays if successful - as the TAB pays out every $1 in that pool it doesn't win extra if your bet is unsuccessful nor does it lose anything if it comes in - it gets its guaranteed $2.85.

A better result on the whole on most occasions - so why would TAB want to discourage this - I think not.

As for the bet changing odds from $9 to $2.80 - are you new to betting or do you not understand how a tote works??????

If it was a minor Aussie harness meeting there was probably less than $1k in the tote win pool when your saw the horse and maybe $12-$15k when it closed.

If the horse you saw was well favoured (and 80% of betting occurs in the last 30seconds before race close) then it's pretty easy to see how the odds changed as the weight of money dragged it down - the fact that movement didn't show for about a minute after the race started is purely due to the time the TAB systems take to calculate the dividend movements based on that late money taken - which normally takes time.

Hope that helps you both

 

 

How the hell is the general punter supposed to understand that ????? .. user friendly is a term that comes to mind, make things user friendly so that the majority of us get it, and know what we are punting on. Complicated is a huge turn off as per One more laps point.

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