Ohokaman 5,763 Report post Posted October 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Berri said: Well not 100% sure of that. When Benbatl won the Dubai World Cup, he rolled Vivos (by 3 1/4) and Deidre (by 3 1/2). That day Benbatl rated 114. Vivios ran 3 1/2 length 2nd to Beauty Generation in HK and 3 1/2 behind Win Bright in another race. As Benbatl's form now includes a Deidre frank, Deidre ran 3rd and 4th to Magical. Magical beat Magic Wand by 2 lengths. who finished 1/2 behind TAS. As my previous post indicated, Lys Gracieux was beaten by Exultant who's form can be franked against Benbatl, Beauty Generation, Vivios and Deidre. You couldn't rate Lys Gracieux higher than 122 and she made the rest look pedestrian. .Not taking anything away from Calcavecchio, he's top class and is improving. Was a big ask the way he was ridden but not good enough against the winner. . He should be standing in NZ when his racing is finished. Greg Carpenter made the comment prior to the Cox Plate....he said based on that rating she should be winning by 2 lengths. He was pretty much spot on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted October 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Leggy said: How do you work that out? JMHO based on who finished behind both of them. TAS was canned by many prior to the race and based on his Epsom 2nd and a “last to 3rd” CP run, he’s definitely improved on his NZ Form. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted October 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Ohokaman said: Greg Carpenter made the comment prior to the Cox Plate....he said based on that rating she should be winning by 2 lengths. He was pretty much spot on. All the big punters agreed with him and I doubt a single bookie escaped the bloodbath. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Clydesdale 229 Report post Posted October 28, 2019 9 hours ago, Berri said: Well not 100% sure of that. When Benbatl won the Dubai World Cup, he rolled Vivos (by 3 1/4) and Deidre (by 3 1/2). That day Benbatl rated 114. Vivios ran 3 1/2 length 2nd to Beauty Generation in HK and 3 1/2 behind Win Bright in another race. As Benbatl's form now includes a Deidre frank, Deidre ran 3rd and 4th to Magical. Magical beat Magic Wand by 2 lengths. who finished 1/2 behind TAS. As my previous post indicated, Lys Gracieux was beaten by Exultant who's form can be franked against Benbatl, Beauty Generation, Vivios and Deidre. You couldn't rate Lys Gracieux higher than 122 and she made the rest look pedestrian. .Not taking anything away from Calcavecchio, he's top class and is improving. Was a big ask the way he was ridden but not good enough against the winner. . He should be standing in NZ when his racing is finished. Berri, I think you can acknowledge that she continues to improve, so the race of a while back is not the benchmark for judgement calls. She has now fully matured, as was evident in her condition and as a rule Hearts Cry stock improve with age. Outstanding effort to win, but have a look at Almond Eye running 1.56.2, pure class....... cheers John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted October 28, 2019 Totally agree that horses improve with age as they actually get faster with age. Strangely enough this was the topic of another post where scientific evidence indicated that our horses didn't reach full speed potential until they were 5-6. As a refresher here are the study results. Maybe the old timers knew what they were talking about when they didn't race their horses early In this instance though, even though she is older, you have other horses competing against each other (franking the form) that indicate, on the face of it, that the improvement is only minor (any improvement is great) as Magic Wand is the recent benchmark. Having been thrashed by Magical (123), you can line up the form correctly. Magical is very good (ran 10l behind Waldgist in this year's Arc) but every time she ran into Enable, she got thrashed. So if Enable is 127 (average) and Magical is 122 (average) then Magic Wand is running to 112 before the Cox Plate. She can't improve that much in 1 month, so the form rating stands. So the winner Lys Gracieux cannot be more than Magical (122) and her recent previous form would indicate this. So this may have been a career best (visually), so I don't think the improvement that you are looking for is there. That's why at the moment TAS is not yet as good as most think he is. He's a good horse but he is not yet a messiah. This is what franking of form is all about... Red Rum, Pam Robson and flockofewes2 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted October 28, 2019 56 minutes ago, Berri said: Totally agree that horses improve with age as they actually get faster with age. Strangely enough this was the topic of another post where scientific evidence indicated that our horses didn't reach full speed potential until they were 5-6. As a refresher here are the study results. Maybe the old timers knew what they were talking about when they didn't race their horses early In this instance though, even though she is older, you have other horses competing against each other (franking the form) that indicate, on the face of it, that the improvement is only minor (any improvement is great) as Magic Wand is the recent benchmark. Having been thrashed by Magical (123), you can line up the form correctly. Magical is very good (ran 10l behind Waldgist in this year's Arc) but every time she ran into Enable, she got thrashed. So if Enable is 127 (average) and Magical is 122 (average) then Magic Wand is running to 112 before the Cox Plate. She can't improve that much in 1 month, so the form rating stands. So the winner Lys Gracieux cannot be more than Magical (122) and her recent previous form would indicate this. So this may have been a career best (visually), so I don't think the improvement that you are looking for is there. That's why at the moment TAS is not yet as good as most think he is. He's a good horse but he is not yet a messiah. This is what franking of form is all about... Good to read your commentary. Very enjoyable. But re TAS, I don’t think anybody has called him a champion or messiah etc. You’re right he is a “good horse”. He’s one of the better NZ bred and trained horses with the potential to go on, especially after his Close Epsom Hcp 2nd place and his last to 3rd CP run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohokaman 5,763 Report post Posted October 29, 2019 Almond Eye...1.56.2........ 56.2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 1,085 Report post Posted October 29, 2019 Agree entirely Trump. We've had a number of Melbourne Cup winners in the past that still haven't been hailed as Champions. Over-exaggeration seems to be commonplace these days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted October 29, 2019 22 minutes ago, Ohokaman said: Almond Eye...1.56.2........ 56.2 Three back on damline Sex Appeal ,a name that sticks in head for few reasons . For racing reasons she produced El Gran Senor a superstar and one of my all time favorite racehorses , in Sangster colours he won a vintage guineas in 84 then went to Derby . Stamina doubts , AtTalaq led the way Pat Eddery cruised up double handfu l looking around trying to conserve his tank but Secreto trained by Vincent O'BRIEN 's son Charles battled hard and nosed him on line . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,778 Report post Posted October 29, 2019 6 hours ago, Red Rum said: Three back on damline Sex Appeal ,a name that sticks in head for few reasons . For racing reasons she produced El Gran Senor a superstar and one of my all time favorite racehorses , in Sangster colours he won a vintage guineas in 84 then went to Derby . Stamina doubts , AtTalaq led the way Pat Eddery cruised up double handfu l looking around trying to conserve his tank but Secreto trained by Vincent O'BRIEN 's son Charles battled hard and nosed him on line . Its weird Rummy , The Japs have been trained up to winning 1.31 miles and 2200 2.10s like its normal.... they hit down under and think its a workout? In NZ its about the jocks ,if the race was actually on here who can foot it? I can remember Eva Graces 2.12 inthe Avondale Cup 20 + years back how does that relate in Japan ? .... probably not bad remembering Horlicks who wasnt exactly the best at the time over 2400... Lance so good that day Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted October 29, 2019 Japan starts their timing systems after the gates have opened and they're up to speed. Flying start is what they call it. Remember, Horlicks won in a World record time of 2.22.22 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,778 Report post Posted October 29, 2019 That equated to a similar time for a 2000 harness mobile by Armalight ..They run their races Lickety split compared to our ambles so what do we expect long term? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruff 2,778 Report post Posted October 29, 2019 So we talking Stand starts to mobile luckily i worked that out when i was 15, 1 second ten metres from a Stand.... Corndale could compete but that year was without a winter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted October 29, 2019 12 hours ago, Gruff said: Its weird Rummy , The Japs have been trained up to winning 1.31 miles and 2200 2.10s like its normal.... they hit down under and think its a workout? In NZ its about the jocks ,if the race was actually on here who can foot it? I can remember Eva Graces 2.12 inthe Avondale Cup 20 + years back how does that relate in Japan ? .... probably not bad remembering Horlicks who wasnt exactly the best at the time over 2400... Lance so good that day Hard run races on flint hard tracks a lot of the time makes for these incredible times as well as that timing system. Luca Cumani's Alkaased beat Horlicks world record in Japan Cup when he held out Hearts Cry , he didn't ever post a time anywhere near that in UK or France . Course characteristics play a big role in UK and Ire , more varied race tactics and going never as firm as Japan. Dubai Turf run at Meydan since 2010, Almond Eye third fastest winning time . Looking at those winners, if they raced she'd be 1.20 to win even using Ladbrokes boost option . They are still buying into European stallions that on course would never have run the times recorded by their home bred stallions . Nothing will touch her in Japan Cup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...