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Dingle

Winton Gallops

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Winton jockey club were forced to race at Ascot Park..

The ascot track is not up to racing at this time of year, in fact not at any particular time of year.

Recent rain just proved that .

Now they are forced to race at Gore.  Nothing against Gore but they have just raced last weekend and have another meeting at the end of the month.

Pushing too much racing on one track ..

What was/is wrong with Winton running its own meeting at home on a suitable track?

Winton would have the best draining soil in Southland.  The track and facilities are in great order.

I cant see why the powers that be cant get their heads out of the sand and admit they have got it wrong.

The blind leading the blind

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Thank you for letting us know that Dingle. I'm a bit speechless to be honest. Was this to be the first example of a club being forced to race away from their home track? Not a good start is it. Ascot Park seems to be a pretty ordinary track. For a major track/city they only race five or six times a year. I hope Gore wasn't one of the tracks that was supposed to be closed, lucky they are there. Might have been embarrassing if Winton had to go back to Winton. Plays havoc with the distances. Horses aiming for the 1,600m races are now back to 1,350m. Can't help with planning.

Perhaps this could be added to the questions put to Rita.

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1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

Thank you for letting us know that Dingle. I'm a bit speechless to be honest. Was this to be the first example of a club being forced to race away from their home track? Not a good start is it. Ascot Park seems to be a pretty ordinary track. For a major track/city they only race five or six times a year. I hope Gore wasn't one of the tracks that was supposed to be closed, lucky they are there. Might have been embarrassing if Winton had to go back to Winton. Plays havoc with the distances. Horses aiming for the 1,600m races are now back to 1,350m. Can't help with planning.

Perhaps this could be added to the questions put to Rita.

Love to know if RITA decided or NZTR (Bernard) with another preemptive strike a la Stratford.

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Yes I believe it is the first forced to change race meeting.

It would have been embarrassing for nztr , but should have been the correct decision to race at Winton.  Certainly wouldnt have embarrassed Winton.

Gore was/has a reprieve I believe  for a couple years at least. 

The one thing Winton has over Gore is the amount of starting distances..

Invercargill people have no interest in going to the races at their home track unless it is the Xmas booze up. Otherwise I doubt they even know that races are on.

At the last Wairio meeting at Ascot I saw one person in the stand and that happened to be my nephew who only came to see my horse.

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8 hours ago, Dingle said:

Yes I believe it is the first forced to change race meeting.

It would have been embarrassing for nztr , but should have been the correct decision to race at Winton.  Certainly wouldnt have embarrassed Winton.

Gore was/has a reprieve I believe  for a couple years at least. 

The one thing Winton has over Gore is the amount of starting distances..

Invercargill people have no interest in going to the races at their home track unless it is the Xmas booze up. Otherwise I doubt they even know that races are on.

At the last Wairio meeting at Ascot I saw one person in the stand and that happened to be my nephew who only came to see my horse.

It's almost as if Ascot Park could be sold and spend some money doing up Winton. NZTR just don't seem to be able to get many things right sadly. I think they have escaped a lot of criticism because people are all focussed on the $80 computer system, and most people don't really understand the importance of getting the basics right.

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12 hours ago, Dingle said:

Winton jockey club were forced to race at Ascot Park..

The ascot track is not up to racing at this time of year, in fact not at any particular time of year.

Recent rain just proved that .

Now they are forced to race at Gore.  Nothing against Gore but they have just raced last weekend and have another meeting at the end of the month.

Pushing too much racing on one track ..

What was/is wrong with Winton running its own meeting at home on a suitable track?

Winton would have the best draining soil in Southland.  The track and facilities are in great order.

I cant see why the powers that be cant get their heads out of the sand and admit they have got it wrong.

The blind leading the blind

Winton's a great track and the grounds , facility's are nice on the eye , the only possible logic behind this forced move is race dates are going to be slashed , nothing else makes any sense , if that's the plan then Gore (which is on the list) might cope .

Down here Winston received strong support , that's all gone and so is he , with his departure  many of the proposed track closures will only happen if clubs  agree to move .

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I suppose the optimists among us are all just waiting to be able to say: "Yes, that plan did work well; we wouldn't have had a $50,000 Winton Cup if they had stayed at Winton and they wouldn't have attracted a crowd of 5,000-6,000 if they had stayed at their home track."  

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Winton should have dug their toes in and said we have a track and are  all  ready to go and we will race here.

Now they end up at Gore because those making decisions and are  being bully boys have probably never ever been South of the Waitaki.

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42 minutes ago, Patiti said:

Winton should have dug their toes in and said we have a track and are  all  ready to go and we will race here.

Now they end up at Gore because those making decisions and are  being bully boys have probably never ever been South of the Waitaki.

I am quite sure the powers that be know virtually nothing about SI racing and even less about Southland racing. I would love to see Southland racing properly integrated into the SI pattern of racing. At this time of the year all roads should be leading to Cup Week at Riccarton and Southland owners and trainers should be aspiring to get horses ready for that week. Sadly there is no 3yo racing in Southland at this time of the year so we never get Southland horses stringing together 2 or 3 wins, albeit in lesser company, and suddenly starting to think about the Guineas races. And Southland stayers never get wound up in time to consider the NZ Cup. Spring racing in Southland should be held on the best tracks rather than the Invercargill bog. And don't get me started on the dearth of 2yo racing in Southland: one for the year at Riverton in April from memory; hardly conducive to the modern pattern of racing.

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18 hours ago, Dingle said:

Winton jockey club were forced to race at Ascot Park..

The ascot track is not up to racing at this time of year, in fact not at any particular time of year.

Recent rain just proved that .

Now they are forced to race at Gore.  Nothing against Gore but they have just raced last weekend and have another meeting at the end of the month.

Pushing too much racing on one track ..

What was/is wrong with Winton running its own meeting at home on a suitable track?

Winton would have the best draining soil in Southland.  The track and facilities are in great order.

I cant see why the powers that be cant get their heads out of the sand and admit they have got it wrong.

The blind leading the blind

Suits making decisions without consultation with the people at the coal face , they made the decision to close these tracks with no local consultation and they'll be damned if they're going to consult now with the people who really understand local conditions and surfaces . They don't get that most tracks any where aren't in great repair now and aren't going to handle the extra meetings that they are asking them to take on and when one of these tracks fall over from overuse they will move meetings to some other tracks till they are all knackered , then what ? 

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2 hours ago, nomates said:

Suits making decisions without consultation with the people at the coal face , they made the decision to close these tracks with no local consultation and they'll be damned if they're going to consult now with the people who really understand local conditions and surfaces . They don't get that most tracks any where aren't in great repair now and aren't going to handle the extra meetings that they are asking them to take on and when one of these tracks fall over from overuse they will move meetings to some other tracks till they are all knackered , then what ? 

The synthetics will save the day. Yeah right, yet another Tui moment

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Here is in part Mr Saundry;s reply to an email I sent him.

"Thank you for your email and apologies for the slight delay in replying.

 

I appreciate and acknowledge your strong desire for racing to continue at Winton. However, NZTR's decision that Winton not race at its racecourse from the 2019/20 season onwards is final. We have been in communication with Howard Clarke recently regarding our decision and the principal reasons behind it.

 

I note your comments regarding the track at Ascot Park. We have been in communication with Southland RC regarding the remediation work it is planning to undertake on its course proper to improve the performance of its track. We need Ascot Park to provide the best racing surface, and racing, that it can in view of Invercargill’s population base. We are therefore working closely with the Club on its plans for improving its track.  We have also raised with Southland RC the possibility of a date swap with Winton to enable Winton to make the best, in the long term, of its new role as a tenant club.

 

I can assure you that Winton is not being “picked on” and that in our view there are very good grounds for the decision we have made regarding its track.  Our main focus in developing the draft NZTR Venue Plan was on identifying the venues that, in our view, would best help us deliver on our vision for the future of thoroughbred racing, which includes developing, on a regional basis, an optimal network of fit-for-purpose racing venues.

 

As I said at our meeting with the Club in June, we are, as an industry, managing decline. Unless we make significant changes, that decline will continue and we will not have the future we all want for the industry. As hard as it might be, this means some clubs will need to race at new venues if they want to continue racing.  A key factor in this regard is the need to drive greater wagering on our racing, both domestically and internationally, as (like it or not) wagering drives the industry and provides us with stakes money and the funds required to upgrade tracks and supporting infrastructure.  We need punters (both domestic and international) to bet more on NZ racing in order to generate the returns that our owners and other industry participants need in order to remain in the industry. The clear evidence is that punters want consistency of tracks and racing in order to bet more. Accordingly, we need to ensure that we are putting on the best racing we can, and that we race more often at venues that punters know and understand, in order to attract greater wagering on our racing.

 

Another key consideration for us in developing the draft NZTR Venue Plan was the limited amount of funds available to the industry for upgrading venues to meet increasing Health & Safety requirements (including animal welfare) and providing venues of the quality generally expected by industry participants, including owners. For example, all venues will need to install plastic running rails. For a venue like Winton, the cost of installing a plastic running is likely to be in the vicinity of $60,000 at least. From an industry perspective, there is little economic sense in meeting the cost of installing plastic running rails at all of our current venues. Clubs across the country have not had funding increases from NZTR for a number of years and many of them are struggling to carry out necessary maintenance work on their tracks and supporting infrastructure, let alone carry out improvements or redevelopments. As a result, we will need to spread the funds available to the industry for upgrading venues over a smaller number of venues in order to achieve the necessary improvements.

 

In the case of Winton, there are a number of venues within reasonably close proximity of each other, with Wyndham already having made the decision voluntarily to race at Gore. Given horse and population numbers, we are of the view that we cannot support racing at all of those venues in the future, bearing in mind the cost required to upgrade them all.  Unfortunately from Winton’s perspective, we came to the view that, in all the circumstances, we could no longer support it racing at Winton.

 

We acknowledge that there will not necessarily be an automatic and identifiable amount saved for the industry as a result of this decision. However, it will mean that funds that would otherwise have had to spent at Winton on upgrading facilities can be spent on another venue that has more racing.

 

Overall, the more we can centralise while still ensuring (to the extent we can) that New Zealanders still have reasonable access to racing, the better off the industry will be financially and the more money there will be for owners and other participants.

 

I note your comments about the loss of sponsors and committee members if Winton does not race at its home track but there a number of examples of clubs who have benefitted greatly from centralisation, and have retained sponsors and community support despite racing at another venue."

 

Up grading Ascot is a complete waste of industry funds and their own funds for that matter.

They have already sold off, for retirement village, a huge parcel of land. The rest of the place should be sold as well.. 

There is a golf course closed down near the beach. What a wonderful place to build a track. Ruakaka of the south.   There is an equestrian facility also down that way  and the more it rains the better it seems to be. A natural all weather surface.

Probably too late to purchase it now. Bugger

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13 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Here is in part Mr Saundry;s reply to an email I sent him.

"Thank you for your email and apologies for the slight delay in replying.

 

 

 

I appreciate and acknowledge your strong desire for racing to continue at Winton. However, NZTR's decision that Winton not race at its racecourse from the 2019/20 season onwards is final. We have been in communication with Howard Clarke recently regarding our decision and the principal reasons behind it.

 

 

 

I note your comments regarding the track at Ascot Park. We have been in communication with Southland RC regarding the remediation work it is planning to undertake on its course proper to improve the performance of its track. We need Ascot Park to provide the best racing surface, and racing, that it can in view of Invercargill’s population base. We are therefore working closely with the Club on its plans for improving its track.  We have also raised with Southland RC the possibility of a date swap with Winton to enable Winton to make the best, in the long term, of its new role as a tenant club.

 

 

 

I can assure you that Winton is not being “picked on” and that in our view there are very good grounds for the decision we have made regarding its track.  Our main focus in developing the draft NZTR Venue Plan was on identifying the venues that, in our view, would best help us deliver on our vision for the future of thoroughbred racing, which includes developing, on a regional basis, an optimal network of fit-for-purpose racing venues.

 

 

 

As I said at our meeting with the Club in June, we are, as an industry, managing decline. Unless we make significant changes, that decline will continue and we will not have the future we all want for the industry. As hard as it might be, this means some clubs will need to race at new venues if they want to continue racing.  A key factor in this regard is the need to drive greater wagering on our racing, both domestically and internationally, as (like it or not) wagering drives the industry and provides us with stakes money and the funds required to upgrade tracks and supporting infrastructure.  We need punters (both domestic and international) to bet more on NZ racing in order to generate the returns that our owners and other industry participants need in order to remain in the industry. The clear evidence is that punters want consistency of tracks and racing in order to bet more. Accordingly, we need to ensure that we are putting on the best racing we can, and that we race more often at venues that punters know and understand, in order to attract greater wagering on our racing.

 

 

 

Another key consideration for us in developing the draft NZTR Venue Plan was the limited amount of funds available to the industry for upgrading venues to meet increasing Health & Safety requirements (including animal welfare) and providing venues of the quality generally expected by industry participants, including owners. For example, all venues will need to install plastic running rails. For a venue like Winton, the cost of installing a plastic running is likely to be in the vicinity of $60,000 at least. From an industry perspective, there is little economic sense in meeting the cost of installing plastic running rails at all of our current venues. Clubs across the country have not had funding increases from NZTR for a number of years and many of them are struggling to carry out necessary maintenance work on their tracks and supporting infrastructure, let alone carry out improvements or redevelopments. As a result, we will need to spread the funds available to the industry for upgrading venues over a smaller number of venues in order to achieve the necessary improvements.

 

 

 

In the case of Winton, there are a number of venues within reasonably close proximity of each other, with Wyndham already having made the decision voluntarily to race at Gore. Given horse and population numbers, we are of the view that we cannot support racing at all of those venues in the future, bearing in mind the cost required to upgrade them all.  Unfortunately from Winton’s perspective, we came to the view that, in all the circumstances, we could no longer support it racing at Winton.

 

 

 

We acknowledge that there will not necessarily be an automatic and identifiable amount saved for the industry as a result of this decision. However, it will mean that funds that would otherwise have had to spent at Winton on upgrading facilities can be spent on another venue that has more racing.

 

 

 

Overall, the more we can centralise while still ensuring (to the extent we can) that New Zealanders still have reasonable access to racing, the better off the industry will be financially and the more money there will be for owners and other participants.

 

 

 

I note your comments about the loss of sponsors and committee members if Winton does not race at its home track but there a number of examples of clubs who have benefitted greatly from centralisation, and have retained sponsors and community support despite racing at another venue."

 

Up grading Ascot is a complete waste of industry funds and their own funds for that matter.

They have already sold off, for retirement village, a huge parcel of land. The rest of the place should be sold as well.. 

There is a golf course closed down near the beach. What a wonderful place to build a track. Ruakaka of the south.   There is an equestrian facility also down that way  and the more it rains the better it seems to be. A natural all weather surface.

Probably too late to purchase it now. Bugger

The important part of the email is , WE ARE MANAGING DECLINE and that's what they are trying to do . 

Winton is a nice duel code track kept in very good condition BUT change must be made and not just here , all over the country to avoid total collapse . We can all carry on doing what we are doing and if that's what we do then in 10 years time there will be very little left .

There is a real problem with the age of racing trainers and punters  , doing nothing will ensure total collapse for this reason alone .

 Winton is an excellent track but in a  small town , the era of small town racing is gone unless we want to see  Sunday picknic meetings racing for nothing at these venues .

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one may as well go race down the beach for a bag of kumaras.

It doesnt matter that it is a small town,,, It is about 25 mins from invercargill

The people of invercargill do not go to races there and winton provides a better more reliable surface for racing than Ascot does..

Consistancy is what is required he says and Winton provides that without all this spending money on a track not worthy.

In fact people dont go to the races at all like they used to... Far too much other entertainment going on and kids involved in all sorts of sport

If they want consistancy  gees I dont know what they see in Ascot... People just dont go there..

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Off-course turnover is the most important factor for the industry, so why not race on the best surfaces and bulldoze any earthquake prone grandstands if required. 

 The clear evidence is that punters want consistency of tracks and racing in order to bet more. Accordingly, we need to ensure that we are putting on the best racing we can, and that we race more often at venues that punters know and understand, in order to attract greater wagering on our racing.

Consistently good or consistently bad? it doesn't seem to matter

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From Bernie's email it appears that the major reason for favouring Invercargill over Winton is because Invercargill has a bigger population base, which is of course true. Winton however is miles closer to Invercargill than Trentham is to Wgtn. On that basis Trentham is probably lucky to survive. It would even be quicker to get from central Invercargill to Winton than it would be to get from central ChCh to Riccarton. Invercargill's population of 55,000 is not much bigger than Nelson's 52,000, so does that mean NZTR might be looking to re-establish racing in Nelson sometime soon?

Surely the sensible option would be to sell off Ascot Park, since it is in a bigger population area, and therefore there is demand for land, and establish a centrally located racecourse with good facilities at Winton? This appears to be a no-brainer. I am amazed it wasn't considered by the various high-powered reviews that have been undertaken.

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14 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

From Bernie's email it appears that the major reason for favouring Invercargill over Winton is because Invercargill has a bigger population base, which is of course true. Winton however is miles closer to Invercargill than Trentham is to Wgtn. On that basis Trentham is probably lucky to survive. It would even be quicker to get from central Invercargill to Winton than it would be to get from central ChCh to Riccarton. Invercargill's population of 55,000 is not much bigger than Nelson's 52,000, so does that mean NZTR might be looking to re-establish racing in Nelson sometime soon?

Surely the sensible option would be to sell off Ascot Park, since it is in a bigger population area, and therefore there is demand for land, and establish a centrally located racecourse with good facilities at Winton? This appears to be a no-brainer. I am amazed it wasn't considered by the various high-powered reviews that have been undertaken.

And therein lies the problem with the whole venue plan, the tracks that provide the best racing should be the ones that are left to race not the tracks with the best stands,non voluntary staff  or next to a population base, Generating revenue for racing is as someone has already mentioned all about off course turnover TV/Internet media etc. worrying about oncourse patrons outside of 3-4 racing centres is just an utter waste of resources and time at this point in the decline as is described.

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OK so i do get their theory , that racing should be where the main population base is, i get it , but that is to simplistic . Anybody that has been following this process knows that population base doesn't automatically translate into higher on course patronage and the higher oncourse turnover that should follow . Otherwise Ellerslie would be racing every week and absolutley smashing it turnover wise and all would be rosy in NZTR land . They don't even follow their own logic , they allow Ellerslie ( the racing club with the biggest population base in the country ) to close for 3 months every year . Trentham with the 2nd biggest population base doesn't race for 3 1/2 months . Go figure , i can't .

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2 hours ago, von Smallhaussen said:

Due to these poor ongoing administrative decisions I have abandoned racing and found a new pass time. I just hope racing keeps these administrators because I could commit harriecarrie if any of them turn up on the board of Morris Dancing NZ. :rcf-liar:

Sorry mate but it is a likely scenario , if you watch NZRB and NZTR they do look very much like morris dancers , all going around in ever decreasing circles , in different directions and weaving and dodging , all the while skipping because they are happy because they think they are achieving something . Find something else to do would be my suggestion .

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On 10/3/2019 at 10:41 PM, We're Doomed said:

From Bernie's email it appears that the major reason for favouring Invercargill over Winton is because Invercargill has a bigger population base, which is of course true. Winton however is miles closer to Invercargill than Trentham is to Wgtn. On that basis Trentham is probably lucky to survive. It would even be quicker to get from central Invercargill to Winton than it would be to get from central ChCh to Riccarton. Invercargill's population of 55,000 is not much bigger than Nelson's 52,000, so does that mean NZTR might be looking to re-establish racing in Nelson sometime soon?

Surely the sensible option would be to sell off Ascot Park, since it is in a bigger population area, and therefore there is demand for land, and establish a centrally located racecourse with good facilities at Winton? This appears to be a no-brainer. I am amazed it wasn't considered by the various high-powered reviews that have been undertaken.

I guess kumara were lucky to keep racing, dodgy track that has seen many abandonments since they fiddled with it, poor grandstand and facilities, and out in the middle of nowhere, defies logic, like many of their decisions. 

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