HH88 23 Report post Posted September 20, 2019 With a few of his sons now standing Downunder an analysis of what lines appear to be working in his best performing progeny may be helpful when selecting suitable mares for them. To capture how his line breeding is building up in the background and how this is advanced with each succeeding generation his great grandsire Hail to Reason is a good start point. His balanced duplication of Maid of the Mist through Craig an Eran and St. Germans provide some insight as does his double male strain of Plucky Liege (through Admiral Drake and Sir Gallahad) who's third dam Frivolity is a full sister to Windermere the dam of Muncaster. There is also line breeding to English Triple Crown winner Ormonde (unbeaten on the turf in 16 starts) his full sister Ornament, and their full brother in blood Martagon. Of note every horse named above descends directly from the same maternal family. Another two to watch (although not yet in play) as we come forward one generation to Halo are North Star's male strain of Agneta, Solario's female strain of Muncaster, and Blenheim's male strain of Desmond, again all from exactly the same maternal family as those above. The effectiveness of Agneta and Desmond are possibly enhanced by St. German's line of Torpoint who carries Tibthorpe, the full brother to Desmond's fourth dam Fair Agnes. Also Tibthorpe's dam Little Agnes is the third dam of Agneta and a full sister to Polly Agnes the second dam of Martagon, Ormonde and Ornament. Halo has balanced line breeding to Blue Larkspur (with Agneta in behind) Blenheim and Gainsborough. Of particular note Cosmic Bomb's fifth dam Word of Honour is by Saraband, thus providing the male strain of Muncaster to balance the female strain through Solario. Sunday Silence's dam has a male strain of Bull Dog to balance Halo's female strain of Sir Gallahad and a female strain of Agneta to balance North Star's male strain. This could appear somewhat insignificant but as Deep Impact's pedigree shows, definitely not the case. Deep Impact has balanced line breeding to Mahmoud (by Blenheim with his male strain of Desmond) which is now balanced with a female strain through Nearctic. Sunday Silence's triple of Agneta are bought forward and balanced through a son and daughter of Dorina. So how does the forgoing manifest itself in Deep Impact's progeny? Pedigrees of some of his best racetrack performers to follow. elvis 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berri 2,131 Report post Posted September 20, 2019 Go to pedigreequery.com and you can get this info quickly and interrogate the pedigrees from there. Interesting thing about his pedigree is that Deep Impact doesn't have any inbreeding in the first 5 removes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted September 23, 2019 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted September 25, 2019 Attached is an analysis of a representative cross section of his best track performers. It is noticeable the line/s being picked up in the dams are the opposite strains of those identified in the original post viz: Hail to Reason, St. Germans, Craig an Eran, (and full sister Sunny Jane) Bull Lea, North Star, Astrophel (and full sister Dulce) etc; etc. The analysis in the original post coupled with the attached pedigree's may assist with mating decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted October 3, 2019 Given all bar one of the initial pedigrees posted were colts, herewith five of Deep Impact's good fillies for review. Note all have balanced line breeding to a son and daughter of a female ancestor or full brother/sister. elvis 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeepers 276 Report post Posted October 3, 2019 I see the former NZ mare Kings Rose has left a Group winner by Deep Impact.A horse called Santono Arthur. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted October 16, 2019 Saturday's Toorak Hcp winner attached. Line breeding Deja vu? Nasrullah 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted October 24, 2019 Two of his Australasian based stallion sons attached. Real Steel and Satono Aladdin are both out of Storm Cat mares largely covered off above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted November 9, 2019 The above analysis again demonstrates the breeding principle that stallions have one or more ancestors they are strongest too, and when mated with mares that carry the opposite strain get the best outcomes. This is the sole principle this analysis is based on. It is evident Deep Impact has met with considerable success when mated with Storm Cat mares. They provide the opposite strains of Bull Lea, Craig an Eran and Tredennis found in Deep Impact's pedigree. By way of example the dam of Staphanos appears to be free of these lines, so given what nature has shown us utilising them seems a logical proposition. A couple of random examples are attached to demonstrate how this might work. The "constant factors" identified in the tabulated pedigrees above are somewhat compelling and identify other lines that can be line bred to (other than Storm Cat) thus increasing the population of suitable mares. Trust this is of assistance to those breeding to race to shift the odds of success a little more in their favour, at the same time potentially enhancing the stallions own statistics. Nasrullah 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis 43 Report post Posted November 9, 2019 What do you mean by the opposite strain? Trying to work this out! Also do you do mating analysis for broodmare owners? cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted November 10, 2019 The term “strain” simply describes how an ancestor descends in a pedigree.If you go to the pedigree sheet immediately above (the Staphanos/Black Minnaloushe) and take as a for instance Eight Thirty highlighted in Blue. You will see he is descending via a daughter in the top half of the pedigree, thus a female strain, and via a son (Bolero) in the bottom half, thus a male strain. Exactly the same principle applies for Craig an Eran, Bull Lea, Tredennis, and Artists Proof as highlighted. The answer to your second question is no. It is an order of magnitude more difficult to start with a broodmare and endeavour to work out what stallion may suit her, there is simply not enough data to work with (unless it is a recognised cross such as Deep Impact with Storm Cat mares where nature has done the hard work) Starting with a stallion, analyzing say his top ten racetrack performers, determining the “constant factors” in their pedigrees then sourcing a broodmare to suit is likely to be more rewarding. Essentially that is what this Deep Impact et-al post endeavours to do. It makes mating decisions somewhat easier when there is at least a little clarity around what lines we are looking for. Trust this helps, as always happy to answer any questions or queries. Nasrullah 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis 43 Report post Posted November 10, 2019 thanks for that. Much appreciated. Yes I get what you say re study stallions performance and find mares to suit. Makes good sense. cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted November 16, 2019 A few more options for consideration. Nasrullah 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted December 4, 2019 Some additional detail on the somewhat uncommon linebreeding to Red Sunset in the Postponed and City on a Hill theoretical matings above, and why this may be effective. (The tabulated pedigree sheets posted earlier in the thread should help to follow the text) Firstly Sunday Silence has balanced line breeding to Agneta through North Star and Fox Cub. Deep Impact brings that forward with his balanced linebreeding to Dorina through Fox Cub and Crepello. (Agneta is the fifth dam of Dorina) Staphanos already has linebreeding to Dulce and her full brother Astrophel, both out of Dorina. The Postponed and City on a Hill matings bring this forward again through an opposite strain of Red Sunset - which may be helpful for fillies bred to race. It also begs the question wether broodmares carrying (but not only) a daughter of Crepello or a son of Busted in their pedigree may be considered? A useful demonstration of how linebreeding is building up almost unnoticed in the background and brought forward, as always through an opposite strain. The tail female line of Crepello's pedigree (attached) may help illustrate the sequencing described above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted December 31, 2019 Apropos all of the above, a couple of interesting lots from the recent ready to run sale: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted August 23, 2020 The post earlier in this thread dated 5th December 2019 suggested (given Sunday Silence's balanced liebreeding to Agneta, and Deep Impact's balanced linebreeding to Dorina) broodmares carrying a daughter of Crepello or a son of Busted may work. Fancy Blue falls into this category, unusually, as it would be reasonable to expect her linebreeding to Crepello would better suit a colt than a filly of her quality. The answer may lie further back in her pedigree with the full brother and sister Troutbeck and Mountain Lass providing the “filly factor” to support the Crepello linebreeding. The second dam of this pair is Rydal the full sister to Kendal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrullah 180 Report post Posted August 23, 2020 Horses with Crepello blood in NZ - Dalghar , Reliable Man , Shamexpress Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted August 30, 2020 Herewith the pedigree of unbeaten G1 winner Contrail. Again the Storm Cat presence provides Deep Impact with opposite strains of Craig an Eran, Tredennis, Bull Lea, and Herodias. Additionally there is now one female strain of Hail to Reason and no less than five male strains of North Star. (Only room for 4 on the sheet) Linebreeding entirely consistent with Deep Impact's best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted September 22, 2020 Does anyone know the current status of the two Real Impacts that went through last years Ready to Run sale? (Lots 52 and 277, extended pedigrees above) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinness 42 Report post Posted September 26, 2020 If only it was all this easy, surely you could predict winners with 100% certainty? Dam everyone would be doing it. Or is it a case of if you keep looking you will find something? Cant wait for the replies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey 209 Report post Posted September 30, 2020 On 8/30/2020 at 1:21 PM, HH88 said: Herewith the pedigree of unbeaten G1 winner Contrail. Again the Storm Cat presence provides Deep Impact with opposite strains of Craig an Eran, Tredennis, Bull Lea, and Herodias. Additionally there is now one female strain of Hail to Reason and no less than five male strains of North Star. (Only room for 4 on the sheet) Linebreeding entirely consistent with Deep Impact's best. To be fair those dam sires are absolute top draw names which clearly give that horse every chance (genetic probability/ Mendels peas) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted October 8, 2020 Gran Alegria, the first G1 sprinter by Deep Impact. Her finish in the Sprinters Stakes Jpn was spectacular. No pedigree surprises when compared to other good ones by him with balanced linebreeding to Hail to Reason, Bull Lea, St. Germans and Herodias. If the link is unserviceable the video is also on the Rich Hill Stud website. https://youtu.be/gHkQ2a41xO0 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted November 23, 2020 Article ex Racing Post: Gran Alegria: an authoritative winner at Hanshin on Saturday JRA By Masakazu Takahashi UPDATED 7:41PM, NOV 22 2020 Favourite Gran Alegria landed her third Grade 1 in a row when overcoming difficulty in running to win the Mile Championship. Winner of last year's Oka Show (Japanese 1,000 Guineas), Gran Alegria showed a smart turn of foot to take the lead in the closing stages at Hanshin before winning by three-quarters of a length. Winning jockey Christophe Lemaire said: "I was able to get a good position after the break, and she was able to run calm and relax very nicely in the race. "She has an ability to change speed quickly, so she ran very fast and was able to catch Indy Champ before the finish. She is very strong. I am looking forward to more success next year." Indy Champ was seeking back-to-back victories in the Mile Championship, but had to settled for second behind Gran Alegria. Nasrullah 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted December 11, 2020 Lei Papale, 3yo filly - 5 starts for 5 wins. Balanced linebreedig to Craig an Eran, St.Germans, Herodias, plus full brother/sister Astrophel and Dulce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH88 23 Report post Posted December 22, 2020 The forgoing illustrates how identifying the “constant factors” in the pedigrees of a sires best progeny can be utilized to identify mares that may suit him, and in turn provide useful clues as to what lines may work with his sons when in turn they go to stud. Attached are two additional mating suggestions for Staphanos that may warrant consideration, and serve to illustrate the principle. The Captain Rio mating has balanced linebreeding to Craig an Eran and his full brother Sky-rocket, Prince John and Busted. (Stud book returns suggest Staphanos covered at least one Captain Rio mare this season) The Golan mating has balanced linebreeding to Craig an Eran and Sky-rocket, Prince John, Source Sucree, Hail to Reason and Eight Thirty. a e cuneen 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...