Baz (NZ)

Stephen McKee 327K Lighter

57 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Sandpiper said:

It depends what happened of course. If the young girl were an employee of the skifield then it is a comparable scanario. The skifield absolutely must have appropriate controls in place to prevent harm. If a teenager who could not ski well had been allowed to go out alone to signpost a black trail before coming a cropper, and the skifield had poor systems in place to manage that risk, the skifield is vastly to blame there.

If you're talking about tourism well whats the point as it has nothing to do with the situation here.

Do you really think an employee demanding to do anything in a place of work forms any kind of a reasonable excuse for an employer? Who is in control in that situation? Please. 

So let’s extend this accountability scenario.

How about if the employee had been sent by the primary employer, on full wages, to an esteemed riding school for advanced education, a riding school that’d historically turned out high profile and hugely successful NZ jockeys, let’s say a jockey like Bruce Herd as an example....then the employee comes back to her primary employee some weeks later and declares that she’s competent, qualified, and experienced having been riding many different horses......so the employer finds a nice quiet horse, not immediately but a few weeks later....and sends the young girl out, with a senior and experienced rider alongside her, on the basis that “let’s just go one round on the trotting track and pull up if you’re in any doubt....or go one more lap if you’re absolutely sure you’re doing ok “

If it matters the young employee decides she wants to do a second lap.....

Where does that leave the employer and employee in terms of personal accountability .....?

I should also ask where NZTR fits into this ?

Do they have any responsibilities because the licensed staff are those of NZTR ...what systems should NZTR have to educate licensees ? or do they just hand licenses out ? And how should NZTR ensure their licensees are competent and working in a safe environment....and furthermore how does the RIU fit in...they have numerous useful retired jockeys on their staff.....where were they when it was time to let this girl to transition  from ground staff to trackwork rider ?

 

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Who does Sophia blame? She has to live this everyday and you can guarantee she has gone over this 100s if not 1000s of times in her own mind. :rcf-sad-4: There are lessons to learn for all involved out of this but Sophia is the one who could teach those coming through the most. Wish her all the best,if we could only turn  back time :rcf-sad-13:

Trying to find something comparable is tough but as a learner surfer you take chances everytime you go out, the unpredictable nature of the Ocean ,changing tides , Swell,conditions ,topography,Rips,big angry fish ,unpredictable trajectory of surfboards even getting in and out of the water on rock or reef makes it a risky pastime similar to Horseracing, you can even break your neck bodysurfing 2ft waves .At what point of the learning process do you take on bigger hollower waves in Sharkier waters knowing the chances of hospitalisation or death is a reality? When things go wrong who do you blame,the guy driving you to the beach? The lifeguard if any on duty? You cant control the unpredictable . can u ? 

 

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1 hour ago, poundforpound said:

So let’s extend this accountability scenario.

How about if the employee had been sent by the primary employer, on full wages, to an esteemed riding school for advanced education, a riding school that’d historically turned out high profile and hugely successful NZ jockeys, let’s say a jockey like Bruce Herd as an example....then the employee comes back to her primary employee some weeks later and declares that she’s competent, qualified, and experienced having been riding many different horses......so the employer finds a nice quiet horse, not immediately but a few weeks later....and sends the young girl out, with a senior and experienced rider alongside her, on the basis that “let’s just go one round on the trotting track and pull up if you’re in any doubt....or go one more lap if you’re absolutely sure you’re doing ok “

If it matters the young employee decides she wants to do a second lap.....

Where does that leave the employer and employee in terms of personal accountability .....?

I should also ask where NZTR fits into this ?

Do they have any responsibilities because the licensed staff are those of NZTR ...what systems should NZTR have to educate licensees ? or do they just hand licenses out ? And how should NZTR ensure their licensees are competent and working in a safe environment....and furthermore how does the RIU fit in...they have numerous useful retired jockeys on their staff.....where were they when it was time to let this girl to transition  from ground staff to trackwork rider ?

 

You have opened up another line here . If a person goes on an accredited course the provider should document  progress , provide certification , areas to work on ,  advice as to how on the job training should progress and at what times . There should be progress updates to provider of training with notes as to knowledge gaps , surely fitness tests etc  . Hopefully this is provided by all jockey trainers in this  extremely dangerous industry . There will be a paper trail and/or computer records as to this training surely , the court and/or lawyers will have scrutinised these.

A heartbreaking situation for all involved .

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Gruff said:

Who does Sophia blame? She has to live this everyday and you can guarantee she has gone over this 100s if not 1000s of times in her own mind. :rcf-sad-4: There are lessons to learn for all involved out of this but Sophia is the one who could teach those coming through the most. Wish her all the best,if we could only time back time :rcf-sad-13:

Trying to find something comparable is tough but as a learner surfer you take chances everytime you go out, the unpredictable nature of the Ocean ,changing tides , Swell,conditions ,topography,Rips,big angry fish ,unpredictable trajectory of surfboards even getting in and out of the water on rock or reef makes it a risky pastime similar to Horseracing, you can even break your neck bodysurfing 2ft waves .At what point of the learning process do you take on bigger hollower waves in Sharkier waters knowing the chances of hospitalisation or death is a reality? When things go wrong who do you blame,the guy driving you to the beach? The lifeguard if any on duty? You cant control the unpredictable . can u ? 

 

A key difference in your example Gruff is that the legislation only relates to work places, ie unless you good enough to be a professional surfer, a surfing “mishap” doesn’t fall under the Health and Safety at Work Act.

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So if Sophia had a licence or document to state she was  ‘competent’ would that put the fine on the shoulders of the issuer?  Mr Mckee would have more experience than most in this  field so what qualifications would one need to hold to sign off such a licence?

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NZTR licenses the stable staff and jockeys, they had various roving staff telling everyone how to run their stables when Purcell was here ....the RIU is accountable for monitoring stable operations ......and the riding school where the young lady went to gain experience has global graduates and various graduates fom the racing community.......

I’m just asking why everyone wants to dump the blame on the trainer when clearly multiple agencies have failed this young lady .... and furthermore the critical question, why was NZTR or their staff not involved, did they ever assess this girl given that they licensed her, or do they just license anyone and accept no responsibility ?

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44 minutes ago, Gruff said:

So if Sophia had a licence or document to state she was  ‘competent’ would that put the fine on the shoulders of the issuer?  Mr Mckee would have more experience than most in this  field so what qualifications would one need to hold to sign off such a licence?

Greg Purcell had a stablehands license granted to him by NZTR .....what does that tell you ?

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There is no 'certificate' of competence that I am aware of,  in this industry.    Certainly not in this region.  I've been harping about this potentially dangerous situation to so many people to be met with a sort of stunned incomprehension.

The 'strappers' tickets,  whether riding or non-riding,  are merely a means of keeping track of who is employed in and around stables and racetracks.  Competency doesn't come in to it.

In earlier times,  experienced trainers with the right support network,  could put a potential rider on a very quiet horse,  on the lead,  and walk and trot around a jog track or small paddock,  as P4P has outlined.

But nowadays, at the bigger metropolitan tracks,  such options are non - existent or very reduced.  To have a horse on the lead in the middle of working horses is just not acceptable.

I know at Riccarton,  we could always take a learner  'around the chute'  on the lead,  or potter around the pony club.  Not possible now, all gone for housing.

And I've seen many a supposedly competent competition rider [ not a complete learner like poor Sophia ]  quite out of their depth on a racing thoroughbred.  It just isn't that easy.

Locally,  the closest to a 'riding school for jockeys' was when Max Skelton ran a riding school for the general public;  often a young hopeful was dispatched up to Yaldhurst to 'go and see Max '  and he would decide if and when the young person was able to go forward on to a racehorse .  He had several retired models at his school which filled a very valuable gap.   But Max hasn't had his riding school for years now,  and the various 'academies'  which purport to give qualifications to certain 'levels' are a waste of time wrt racehorses - IMO.

I've had students do work experience who can't pick out a horse's foot.

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The young lady in question was sent to Kyrewood ( now closed ) for upskilling....and SJMck paid for that exercise.......Kyrewood ( the Gortons ) is highly rated and has had distinguished graduates including but not limited to Bruce Herd.

My question again.....where was NZTR given that the young lass was their licensee, and where was the RIU given that they enforce the rules of racing ?

Why has the industry not stepped forward and become involved, eg the Trainers Assn, NZTR and the RIU to prevent a recurrence and to “ own “ this incident .....what are the subsequent contingency plans ?

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32 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

The young lady in question was sent to Kyrewood ( now closed ) for upskilling....and SJMck paid for that exercise.......Kyrewood ( the Gortons ) is highly rated and has had distinguished graduates including but not limited to Bruce Herd.

My question again.....where was NZTR given that the young lass was their licensee, and where was the RIU given that they enforce the rules of racing ?

Why has the industry not stepped forward and become involved, eg the Trainers Assn, NZTR and the RIU to prevent a recurrence and to “ own “ this incident .....what are the subsequent contingency plans ?

It's obviously been through court process already .The rider went to training school then,so  she would have returned with a report of progress pass/ fail / more work required etc  . It must have stated a way forward in career . In previous post it stated trainer delayed letting her ride then relented . The crux of matter would be what made trainer relent and let her ride , what happened between riding school and fateful ride .

Iam not knocking trainer  he must have had many young people through the yard without incident , there but for  grace of god goes anyone who has  trained young people on the job  to  undertake  dangerous tasks . It's a judgement thing in some cases how much rope to give them to build confidence and not knock confidence .

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1 hour ago, poundforpound said:

The young lady in question was sent to Kyrewood ( now closed ) for upskilling....and SJMck paid for that exercise.......Kyrewood ( the Gortons ) is highly rated and has had distinguished graduates including but not limited to Bruce Herd.

My question again.....where was NZTR given that the young lass was their licensee, and where was the RIU given that they enforce the rules of racing ?

Why has the industry not stepped forward and become involved, eg the Trainers Assn, NZTR and the RIU to prevent a recurrence and to “ own “ this incident .....what are the subsequent contingency plans .

When you look at the jockey schools / tuition regimes  in the UK, Ireland , Australia, South Africa - even Korea -  it should make us realise just how far behind we are. 

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4 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

When you look at the jockey schools / tuition regimes  in the UK, Ireland , Australia, South Africa - even Korea -  it should make us realise just how far behind we are. 

Usual story Pam......the industry is driven by “suits” who care ( selfishly ) only about stakes because they’re mostly discretionary owners.

They don’t give a fuck about infrastructure, education, research & development or IP, or licensees for that matter......despite their masquerading they don’t even really care about health and safety, or horse welfare, mainly because they’ve had no “hands on” horse experience 

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27 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

Usual story Pam......the industry is driven by “suits” who care ( selfishly ) only about stakes because they’re mostly discretionary owners.

They don’t give a fuck about infrastructure, education, research & development or IP, or licensees for that matter......despite their masquerading they don’t even really care about health and safety, or horse welfare, mainly because they’ve had no “hands on” horse experience 

And all the while doing nothing that even resembles progressing what is required to develop a sustainable and increasing stakes structure.

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Stephen had an arguable case and he should have been supported by the NZ Trainers Association 

This lass may have sadly misrepresented her riding experience to Stephen who I believe in good faith employed her.

The consequences for everyone are very sad.

The Auckland Council approved the use of hire scooters in Auckland and they have created a major danger for pedestrians in particular What liability did the AC have with the recent death of a scooter rider on their patch.?.?

NZ has a number of laws or lack of laws in respect of employment accidents and non employment accidents (eg Auckland  scooter death) that  should be less PC focused and more responsibility focused

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On 8/19/2019 at 2:39 PM, poundforpound said:

Because it’s from you, and you’re obviously with no experience as a licensee, or doing anything useful in racing......

Way to attack the man and not the post. Class act.

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On 10/11/2019 at 10:38 AM, Gruff said:

Try and see what your saying from others perspectives Sicko, ‘colourful’ language is one thing and Leos the best at it, but you may of crossed a line with your response,as you may well of with your original post here :rcf-happy-5:

Massive bias on here to that self righteous prat.

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I’m not sure why you would make such a statement Sicko. I believe that all workplaces can be susceptible to unfortunate accidents or mishaps, whatever you want to call them. I had a 21yo employee hang himself from a forklift, all because he was upset over his 18yo girlfriend leaving him. Should I be liable for leaving a forklift at his disposable? There are unfortunate incidents happening everyday - even the knife and fork are plastic on business class flights These days. If a passenger stabs another in the eye with a plastic knife, is the Airline to blame? Should passengers eat with their fingers? The Stable incident referred to in this article is a tragedy for “All” concerned. A 3yo was run over in a Childcare Centre car park in Melbourne today. The child died. Who are we to blame? The parent for not looking out? The poor driver for not being alert? The Centre for possibly not having traffic guardians? Accidents happen and sometimes even the utmost care can’t avoid them. You’re post and insinuation re guilt are not needed. It doesn’t help anybody and is not needed. I’m sure SMcKee doesn’t need or deserve any reminders of this sad case of a workplace accident. 

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I think that the guts of it is workplace law is not common law which has a basis of what is fair. There is no fairness in the workplace law. That, it is intended to be punitive to drive down serious accidents in the workplace. But only in high risk industries.!

Say someone moves a water cooler in a legal workplace and a clerk trips over it and ends up in a wheelchair. Are they going after the employer there.? If the answer is no, workplace law is discriminatory. and compliant judges enforce that.

So a pillar of the Racing community got a writ slapped on it - for all you others to see.

it would be kind to leave this matter be now.

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7 hours ago, Trump said:

I’m not sure why you would make such a statement Sicko. I believe that all workplaces can be susceptible to unfortunate accidents or mishaps, whatever you want to call them. I had a 21yo employee hang himself from a forklift, all because he was upset over his 18yo girlfriend leaving him. Should I be liable for leaving a forklift at his disposable? There are unfortunate incidents happening everyday - even the knife and fork are plastic on business class flights These days. If a passenger stabs another in the eye with a plastic knife, is the Airline to blame? Should passengers eat with their fingers? The Stable incident referred to in this article is a tragedy for “All” concerned. A 3yo was run over in a Childcare Centre car park in Melbourne today. The child died. Who are we to blame? The parent for not looking out? The poor driver for not being alert? The Centre for possibly not having traffic guardians? Accidents happen and sometimes even the utmost care can’t avoid them. You’re post and insinuation re guilt are not needed. It doesn’t help anybody and is not needed. I’m sure SMcKee doesn’t need or deserve any reminders of this sad case of a workplace accident. 

I dont think your examples are even remotely comparable. Incredibly sad though, and sorry that happened. I dont think Steven needs any reminders either, I didnt start the thread. I would say he was a lot less at fault than many other trainers had been, he was just the unlucky one (him and her obviously)

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6 hours ago, Nerula said:

I think that the guts of it is workplace law is not common law which has a basis of what is fair. There is no fairness in the workplace law. That, it is intended to be punitive to drive down serious accidents in the workplace. But only in high risk industries.! 

Say someone moves a water cooler in a legal workplace and a clerk trips over it and ends up in a wheelchair. Are they going after the employer there.? If the answer is no, workplace law is discriminatory. and compliant judges enforce that. 

So a pillar of the Racing community got a writ slapped on it - for all you others to see. 

it would be kind to leave this matter be now. 

Im very happy to leave this matter be. I said my bit. Just sick of the personal attacks and abuse, always by the same guy, always unfair and always without any kind of penalty.

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12 minutes ago, Sickopunter said:

Im very happy to leave this matter be. I said my bit. Just sick of the personal attacks and abuse, always by the same guy, always unfair and always without any kind of penalty.

You mean they guy who doesn’t like nillers who’ve done nothing attacking the hard working licensees ? that guy ?

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27 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

You mean they guy who doesn’t like nillers who’ve done nothing attacking the hard working licensees ? that guy ?

Again, playing the man, not the point. Least you kept your language a little more respectable.

I don't see how punters shouldn't have a say. No racing without them

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4 minutes ago, Sickopunter said:

Again, playing the man, not the point. Least you kept your language a little more respectable.

I don't see how punters shouldn't have a say. No racing without them

Just because you have a bet on the rugby it doesn’t mean you should give Steve Hansen advice....niller......

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2 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

Just because you have a bet on the rugby it doesn’t mean you should give Steve Hansen advice....niller......

If you knew how much I bet you'd realise I deserve an opinion. Just because you coach a kids Rugby team it doesnt make you the CEO of NZ Rugby. Dick.

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