RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Baz (NZ)

Stephen McKee 327K Lighter

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So if Sophia had a licence or document to state she was  ‘competent’ would that put the fine on the shoulders of the issuer?  Mr Mckee would have more experience than most in this  field so what qualifications would one need to hold to sign off such a licence?

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There is no 'certificate' of competence that I am aware of,  in this industry.    Certainly not in this region.  I've been harping about this potentially dangerous situation to so many people to be met with a sort of stunned incomprehension.

The 'strappers' tickets,  whether riding or non-riding,  are merely a means of keeping track of who is employed in and around stables and racetracks.  Competency doesn't come in to it.

In earlier times,  experienced trainers with the right support network,  could put a potential rider on a very quiet horse,  on the lead,  and walk and trot around a jog track or small paddock,  as P4P has outlined.

But nowadays, at the bigger metropolitan tracks,  such options are non - existent or very reduced.  To have a horse on the lead in the middle of working horses is just not acceptable.

I know at Riccarton,  we could always take a learner  'around the chute'  on the lead,  or potter around the pony club.  Not possible now, all gone for housing.

And I've seen many a supposedly competent competition rider [ not a complete learner like poor Sophia ]  quite out of their depth on a racing thoroughbred.  It just isn't that easy.

Locally,  the closest to a 'riding school for jockeys' was when Max Skelton ran a riding school for the general public;  often a young hopeful was dispatched up to Yaldhurst to 'go and see Max '  and he would decide if and when the young person was able to go forward on to a racehorse .  He had several retired models at his school which filled a very valuable gap.   But Max hasn't had his riding school for years now,  and the various 'academies'  which purport to give qualifications to certain 'levels' are a waste of time wrt racehorses - IMO.

I've had students do work experience who can't pick out a horse's foot.

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32 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

The young lady in question was sent to Kyrewood ( now closed ) for upskilling....and SJMck paid for that exercise.......Kyrewood ( the Gortons ) is highly rated and has had distinguished graduates including but not limited to Bruce Herd.

My question again.....where was NZTR given that the young lass was their licensee, and where was the RIU given that they enforce the rules of racing ?

Why has the industry not stepped forward and become involved, eg the Trainers Assn, NZTR and the RIU to prevent a recurrence and to “ own “ this incident .....what are the subsequent contingency plans ?

It's obviously been through court process already .The rider went to training school then,so  she would have returned with a report of progress pass/ fail / more work required etc  . It must have stated a way forward in career . In previous post it stated trainer delayed letting her ride then relented . The crux of matter would be what made trainer relent and let her ride , what happened between riding school and fateful ride .

Iam not knocking trainer  he must have had many young people through the yard without incident , there but for  grace of god goes anyone who has  trained young people on the job  to  undertake  dangerous tasks . It's a judgement thing in some cases how much rope to give them to build confidence and not knock confidence .

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1 hour ago, poundforpound said:

The young lady in question was sent to Kyrewood ( now closed ) for upskilling....and SJMck paid for that exercise.......Kyrewood ( the Gortons ) is highly rated and has had distinguished graduates including but not limited to Bruce Herd.

My question again.....where was NZTR given that the young lass was their licensee, and where was the RIU given that they enforce the rules of racing ?

Why has the industry not stepped forward and become involved, eg the Trainers Assn, NZTR and the RIU to prevent a recurrence and to “ own “ this incident .....what are the subsequent contingency plans .

When you look at the jockey schools / tuition regimes  in the UK, Ireland , Australia, South Africa - even Korea -  it should make us realise just how far behind we are. 

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27 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

Usual story Pam......the industry is driven by “suits” who care ( selfishly ) only about stakes because they’re mostly discretionary owners.

They don’t give a fuck about infrastructure, education, research & development or IP, or licensees for that matter......despite their masquerading they don’t even really care about health and safety, or horse welfare, mainly because they’ve had no “hands on” horse experience 

And all the while doing nothing that even resembles progressing what is required to develop a sustainable and increasing stakes structure.

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Stephen had an arguable case and he should have been supported by the NZ Trainers Association 

This lass may have sadly misrepresented her riding experience to Stephen who I believe in good faith employed her.

The consequences for everyone are very sad.

The Auckland Council approved the use of hire scooters in Auckland and they have created a major danger for pedestrians in particular What liability did the AC have with the recent death of a scooter rider on their patch.?.?

NZ has a number of laws or lack of laws in respect of employment accidents and non employment accidents (eg Auckland  scooter death) that  should be less PC focused and more responsibility focused

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On 10/11/2019 at 10:38 AM, Gruff said:

Try and see what your saying from others perspectives Sicko, ‘colourful’ language is one thing and Leos the best at it, but you may of crossed a line with your response,as you may well of with your original post here :rcf-happy-5:

Massive bias on here to that self righteous prat.

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I’m not sure why you would make such a statement Sicko. I believe that all workplaces can be susceptible to unfortunate accidents or mishaps, whatever you want to call them. I had a 21yo employee hang himself from a forklift, all because he was upset over his 18yo girlfriend leaving him. Should I be liable for leaving a forklift at his disposable? There are unfortunate incidents happening everyday - even the knife and fork are plastic on business class flights These days. If a passenger stabs another in the eye with a plastic knife, is the Airline to blame? Should passengers eat with their fingers? The Stable incident referred to in this article is a tragedy for “All” concerned. A 3yo was run over in a Childcare Centre car park in Melbourne today. The child died. Who are we to blame? The parent for not looking out? The poor driver for not being alert? The Centre for possibly not having traffic guardians? Accidents happen and sometimes even the utmost care can’t avoid them. You’re post and insinuation re guilt are not needed. It doesn’t help anybody and is not needed. I’m sure SMcKee doesn’t need or deserve any reminders of this sad case of a workplace accident. 

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I think that the guts of it is workplace law is not common law which has a basis of what is fair. There is no fairness in the workplace law. That, it is intended to be punitive to drive down serious accidents in the workplace. But only in high risk industries.!

Say someone moves a water cooler in a legal workplace and a clerk trips over it and ends up in a wheelchair. Are they going after the employer there.? If the answer is no, workplace law is discriminatory. and compliant judges enforce that.

So a pillar of the Racing community got a writ slapped on it - for all you others to see.

it would be kind to leave this matter be now.

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7 hours ago, Trump said:

I’m not sure why you would make such a statement Sicko. I believe that all workplaces can be susceptible to unfortunate accidents or mishaps, whatever you want to call them. I had a 21yo employee hang himself from a forklift, all because he was upset over his 18yo girlfriend leaving him. Should I be liable for leaving a forklift at his disposable? There are unfortunate incidents happening everyday - even the knife and fork are plastic on business class flights These days. If a passenger stabs another in the eye with a plastic knife, is the Airline to blame? Should passengers eat with their fingers? The Stable incident referred to in this article is a tragedy for “All” concerned. A 3yo was run over in a Childcare Centre car park in Melbourne today. The child died. Who are we to blame? The parent for not looking out? The poor driver for not being alert? The Centre for possibly not having traffic guardians? Accidents happen and sometimes even the utmost care can’t avoid them. You’re post and insinuation re guilt are not needed. It doesn’t help anybody and is not needed. I’m sure SMcKee doesn’t need or deserve any reminders of this sad case of a workplace accident. 

I dont think your examples are even remotely comparable. Incredibly sad though, and sorry that happened. I dont think Steven needs any reminders either, I didnt start the thread. I would say he was a lot less at fault than many other trainers had been, he was just the unlucky one (him and her obviously)

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6 hours ago, Nerula said:

I think that the guts of it is workplace law is not common law which has a basis of what is fair. There is no fairness in the workplace law. That, it is intended to be punitive to drive down serious accidents in the workplace. But only in high risk industries.! 

Say someone moves a water cooler in a legal workplace and a clerk trips over it and ends up in a wheelchair. Are they going after the employer there.? If the answer is no, workplace law is discriminatory. and compliant judges enforce that. 

So a pillar of the Racing community got a writ slapped on it - for all you others to see. 

it would be kind to leave this matter be now. 

Im very happy to leave this matter be. I said my bit. Just sick of the personal attacks and abuse, always by the same guy, always unfair and always without any kind of penalty.

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27 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

You mean they guy who doesn’t like nillers who’ve done nothing attacking the hard working licensees ? that guy ?

Again, playing the man, not the point. Least you kept your language a little more respectable.

I don't see how punters shouldn't have a say. No racing without them

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2 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

Just because you have a bet on the rugby it doesn’t mean you should give Steve Hansen advice....niller......

If you knew how much I bet you'd realise I deserve an opinion. Just because you coach a kids Rugby team it doesnt make you the CEO of NZ Rugby. Dick.

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2 hours ago, Sickopunter said:

If you knew how much I bet you'd realise I deserve an opinion. Just because you coach a kids Rugby team it doesnt make you the CEO of NZ Rugby. Dick.

You’ve just confirmed you are a hypocrite for goodness sakes! You’re playing the man Sicko - same thing you accused P4P of doing. Best leave it and move on.

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10 hours ago, Trump said:

You’ve just confirmed you are a hypocrite for goodness sakes! You’re playing the man Sicko - same thing you accused P4P of doing. Best leave it and move on.

If its good for the goose, over and over again........

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Did many years in O.S.H. but won't comment on the circumstances of this case other than to say that the outcome of an incident can be purely random. In 9 times of 10, tripping over your own feet will cause a few bruises but one time there could be serious injury. H.A.S.E. law is supposed to be about PREVENTABLE accidents.

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I've heard of a south island trainer whose horse has dumped a rider that rider refused to ride the horse again. Another unsuspecting rider shows ends up with a broken pelvis then another unsuspecting rider shows crashes off ends up with two broken wrists but that's ok. Sort of makes a person think Abit. Like xxxx xxx xxxx. Is going on. This is only passed to me information so maybe I've got it wrong. Let's hope it's not true

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8 hours ago, claude55 said:

I've heard of a south island trainer whose horse has dumped a rider that rider refused to ride the horse again. Another unsuspecting rider shows ends up with a broken pelvis then another unsuspecting rider shows crashes off ends up with two broken wrists but that's ok. Sort of makes a person think Abit. Like xxxx xxx xxxx. Is going on. This is only passed to me information so maybe I've got it wrong. Let's hope it's not true

 

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On 10/15/2019 at 10:29 AM, Trump said:

 I believe that all workplaces can be susceptible to unfortunate accidents or mishaps, whatever you want to call them.

 

On 10/15/2019 at 10:29 AM, Trump said:

I had a 21yo employee hang himself from a forklift, all because he was upset over his 18yo girlfriend leaving him. Should I be liable for leaving a forklift at his disposable? There are unfortunate incidents happening everyday - even the knife and fork are plastic on business class flights These days. If a passenger stabs another in the eye with a plastic knife, is the Airline to blame? Should passengers eat with their fingers? The Stable incident referred to in this article is a tragedy for “All” concerned. A 3yo was run over in a Childcare Centre car park in Melbourne today. The child died. Who are we to blame? The parent for not looking out? The poor driver for not being alert? The Centre for possibly not having traffic guardians? Accidents happen and sometimes even the utmost care can’t avoid them. You’re post and insinuation re guilt are not needed. It doesn’t help anybody and is not needed. I’m sure SMcKee doesn’t need or deserve any reminders of this sad case of a workplace accident. 

 

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Idk what happened there ^ . Anyways...

 

 

On 10/15/2019 at 10:29 AM, Trump said:

 I believe that all workplaces can be susceptible to unfortunate accidents or mishaps, whatever you want to call them.

Obviously true. But crucially and just as obviously not always the case, hence this whole discussion.

Quote

I had a 21yo employee hang himself from a forklift, all because he was upset over his 18yo girlfriend leaving him. Should I be liable for leaving a forklift at his disposable? 

 
Sorry to hear that. If you were aware of likelihood of harm to self or others, yes to some extent for sure. Since in that case he should not have been out of line of sight supervision. Or at work at all, or with access to heavy machinery. At least without professional assessment first. Mentally unstable individuals operating heavy machinery... uh huh.
 
On 10/15/2019 at 10:29 AM, Trump said:

There are unfortunate incidents happening everyday - even the knife and fork are plastic on business class flights These days. If a passenger stabs another in the eye with a plastic knife, is the Airline to blame? Should passengers eat with their fingers? The Stable incident referred to in this article is a tragedy for “All” concerned. 

 
Is the airline to blame? What? This is absurd whataboutism. What about cheesegrater manufacturers when someone grates a baby to death? Fisher and Paykel when someone makes microwave kitten? But omg cute kittens and babies.
 
 
On 10/15/2019 at 10:29 AM, Trump said:

A 3yo was run over in a Childcare Centre car park in Melbourne today. The child died. Who are we to blame? The parent for not looking out? The poor driver for not being alert? The Centre for possibly not having traffic guardians? 

 
Omg cute todders.
 
It depends.
 
Perhaps in your anarchic world it is ok for parents to let clueless 3 foot idiots over whom they hold full dominion and responsibility wander among the wheels of cars. Not in mine. Of course the parents have some responsibility, what the actual fuck? Just because we feel sorry for them and know it could have happened to us doesn't change that.
 
Likewise, perhaps the driver was just 'unlucky'. Who could have expected a child to be there, in a childcare carpark? Did the driver know mirrors dont cover all the angles, were they even using them, did they choose to park somewhere with good visibility, did they choose to drive in bonnet first and thereby back out when there would likely be more foot traffic later, were they distracted. And so on.
 
As for the centre, they have a more indirect role to play. Traffic guardians are an interesting point, and obviously employed by schools who have a more concentrated peak time before and after school. Daycare has more dribs and drabs pick ups and drop offs for a typically smaller role so very uneconomic in comparison. I think daycare has an educational responsibility to either be clear that their care starts and ends at their front door, or take some measures. And if they own the car park, they have no choice. At the very least take time to consider possible issues and have a forum for this. For example are there issues around the layout of their carpark, ideally design them away - fence off cars from people, have cars going in one direction only, etc. Assuming car park is preexisting, what areas might cause a problem: is there a play area across the street that might cause kids to run out, is the gate secure, are there corners or other blindspot for drivers and so on. See no evil hear no evil is not the way forwards.
 
Sounds like a lot of trouble to go to? Good drivers will be fine? Hubris is a thing, many self declared good drivers kill others needlessly. Many good trainers have jockeys die on their premises. Are some deaths inevitable? Probably. One thing is for sure, regardless of all the car park controls outlined above, if you are driving appropriately in a childcare car park you will never kill a child. Never.
 
 
On 10/15/2019 at 10:29 AM, Trump said:

 You’re post and insinuation re guilt are not needed. It doesn’t help anybody and is not needed. I’m sure SMcKee doesn’t need or deserve any reminders of this sad case of a workplace accident. 

 
Its not about McKee.
 
 
 

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