Baz (NZ) 1,719 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 We used to have qualifying trials once.... before you could get a start race day! fitzy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Robson 1,536 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 27 minutes ago, We're Doomed said: What I can never understand is why the trainers never seem to complain on behalf of their owners. To whom does one complain? Because no one listens. We're Doomed 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Pam Robson said: To whom does one complain? Because no one listens. Must be a nightmare for the trainers , owners must get grumpy and racing really is in a rut. They talking about AWT and building them, but on other hand cannot afford to run races , therefore where's the money coming from to run races on the AWT s. Most AWT around the world don't have huge safety limits , no big wide expansive tracks so will have to card decent number of races per meeting . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, Red Rum said: Must be a nightmare for the trainers , owners must get grumpy and racing really is in a rut. They talking about AWT and building them, but on other hand cannot afford to run races , therefore where's the money coming from to run races on the AWT s. Most AWT around the world don't have huge safety limits , no big wide expansive tracks so will have to card decent number of races per meeting . If they can't afford to run a race at Waimate or Timaru, how can they afford to run a race on a multi million dollar AWT? Pam Robson, Red Rum and Huey 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, tripple alliance said: Correct , mazing how trainers pass up good stakes and of course this shows some tweeking of the rating system may be desirable , this also shows some owners need to have a firm word with their trainers . If the administrators are planning to put the squeeze on the local industry to force trainers to grab any opportunity to have a start then we are indeed entering a phase of reality , it's long been known that bigger fields are profitable to run but in the past NZTR has always pandered to owners , clubs and trainers at the expense of long term prosperity for the overall industry . If we are to close tracks as Messara recommends then the remaining tracks down here will struggle to cope with the extra demand on them , the logical solution is less local racing , which means more imported content onscreen but better stakes for the remaining races in NZ . RITA needs to increase stake funding or provide the same amount as before but divide it amongst less races , this will give the impression stakes have lifted , let's see what happens . Don't forget currently the industry is borrowing $11 Million a year to keep stakes at todays level , how long can that continue ?? So what run your maiden or R65 in an R82 so it gets a run? Transport Fee,Noms and Acceptances, Jockey Fee etc to get spanked up a couple of grades with a horse that may not ever be capable of making that sort of grade let alone putting it in against those sort of horses for a run? We're Doomed and Patiti 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Smallhaussen 3,226 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 The answer is simple - go back to the old days and have only 3 grades (get rid of the rating system) Maiden Intermediate Open and have a sprint and middle distance for each grade every race day sprints could be either 1200m or 1400m middle distance anything from 1600m to 2400m with a bit of thought (what is that?) programmes could be worked to cater for every horse Rusty and Pam Robson 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, von Smallhaussen said: The answer is simple - go back to the old days and have only 3 grades (get rid of the rating system) Maiden Intermediate Open and have a sprint and middle distance for each grade every race day sprints could be either 1200m or 1400m middle distance anything from 1600m to 2400m with a bit of thought (what is that?) programmes could be worked to cater for every horse Ironically, of course, the ratings system is intended to help horses remain competitive by being able to drop back, and thus help field sizes, but the programming incompetence means there are few opportunities for those horses anyhow. Drop below rating 60 and it can be hard to get a start anywhere. Patiti 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
weasel57 429 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 Someone I know has a slice of a smart sprinter turning 6 soon ..has won 5 and black-type placed ....all earnings have gone to trainer.jockeys, vets, NZTR etc ...after 2.5 seasons racing is nil....but how do you put a price/value on the fun along the way? Patiti 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey 2,037 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 2 hours ago, We're Doomed said: Ironically, of course, the ratings system is intended to help horses remain competitive by being able to drop back, and thus help field sizes, but the programming incompetence means there are few opportunities for those horses anyhow. Drop below rating 60 and it can be hard to get a start anywhere. And that's pretty much it, it's not totally the ratings that are the problem it's the poor programming and the inability to use initiative with the little momentum there is to get the ball rolling in at least one area that would help. Someone needs to drive some change, I've never understood why the calendar has to be set in stone so far out or at least some flexibility available to make it work. Aaron Bidlake, We're Doomed and Patiti 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Robson 1,536 Report post Posted July 10, 2019 3 hours ago, von Smallhaussen said: The answer is simple - go back to the old days and have only 3 grades (get rid of the rating system) Maiden Intermediate Open and have a sprint and middle distance for each grade every race day sprints could be either 1200m or 1400m middle distance anything from 1600m to 2400m with a bit of thought (what is that?) programmes could be worked to cater for every horse Used to work just fine , I'd be one of few who remember it well....but many argue that the ratings system is what is proven to work internationally....it seems it's only here that it's implemenation is flawed. And there are always some - come in Pitty - who manage to work it just fine. But it doesn't cater for every horse, many don't understand it or can't make it work for them..and the overall programming is not inspirational in any shape or form. If we must have a 'tiered' system [ a crock IMO ] let's make it work. Run maidens on ' industry days ' , R. 60, 65, a highweight, an ordinary common-or-garden 2 y.o hcp so your baby can have look at raceday without having to attack stakes company ' for the experience' ...ffs... Get horses starts, get them through the grades - or sacked and in the showring, whatever - and let the higher-rated sorts run on the feature and premier days. Better form [ should ] make for attractive betting fields....just a few ideas. Aaron Bidlake 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Robson 1,536 Report post Posted July 11, 2019 On 7/9/2019 at 9:44 PM, napier said: Got a feeling that clubs are only allowed to run 7 races on industry days - someone out there will know if this is correct...... Can't be, ten at Timaru. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted July 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, Pam Robson said: And there are always some - come in Pitty - who manage to work it just fine. But it doesn't cater for every horse, many don't understand it or can't make it work for them..and the overall programming is not inspirational in any shape or form. If we must have a 'tiered' system [ a crock IMO ] let's make it work. Run maidens on ' industry days ' , R. 60, 65, a highweight, an ordinary common-or-garden 2 y.o hcp so your baby can have look at raceday without having to attack stakes company ' for the experience' ...ffs... Get horses starts, get them through the grades - or sacked and in the showring, whatever - and let the higher-rated sorts run on the feature and premier days. Better form [ should ] make for attractive betting fields....just a few ideas. Hardly earth-shattering "ideas" Pam. Just total bloody common sense I would have thought. I am always intrigued whether there is anyone working along these lines for NZTR or Rita. Surely with all the money being thrown around in grotesque salaries they must have someone responsible for or talented in this area. I know there has been no evidence of it so far, but surely they must be aware how incompetent the current system is? I am quite serious here; does anyone know if "management" is aware how badly they have neglected this pretty important aspect of Racing, and whether they have any intention of doing anything about it? I suspect that anyone can walk in off the street (or from Foreign affairs or NZ Post) and say "I know, why don't we sell off a few racecourses, that works in other industries". Unfortunately someone off the street isn't going to say "I think Ashburton needs to run a Maiden 2yo, perhaps Riccarton could run a 2yo 1,400m, some of the industry days should be running a rating 62, Timaru needs a 0-1win hurdle etc". There used to be people in the industry with this knowledge and skill. Do any of them still exist? Were they the first to get the boot when all the outsiders came in because they didn't fit the look? Huey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohokaman 5,759 Report post Posted July 11, 2019 2 hours ago, weasel57 said: Someone I know has a slice of a smart sprinter turning 6 soon ..has won 5 and black-type placed ....all earnings have gone to trainer.jockeys, vets, NZTR etc ...after 2.5 seasons racing is nil....but how do you put a price/value on the fun along the way? Depends how deep your pockets are Weasel.....you would need to be real keen at that rate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Robson 1,536 Report post Posted July 11, 2019 36 minutes ago, We're Doomed said: Hardly earth-shattering "ideas" Pam. Just total bloody common sense I would have thought. I am always intrigued whether there is anyone working along these lines for NZTR or Rita. Surely with all the money being thrown around in grotesque salaries they must have someone responsible for or talented in this area. I know there has been no evidence of it so far, but surely they must be aware how incompetent the current system is? I am quite serious here; does anyone know if "management" is aware how badly they have neglected this pretty important aspect of Racing, and whether they have any intention of doing anything about it? I suspect that anyone can walk in off the street (or from Foreign affairs or NZ Post) and say "I know, why don't we sell off a few racecourses, that works in other industries". Unfortunately someone off the street isn't going to say "I think Ashburton needs to run a Maiden 2yo, perhaps Riccarton could run a 2yo 1,400m, some of the industry days should be running a rating 62, Timaru needs a 0-1win hurdle etc". There used to be people in the industry with this knowledge and skill. Do any of them still exist? Were they the first to get the boot when all the outsiders came in because they didn't fit the look? I can't answer that. But, [ leaving aside the NZRB/Rita for the moment ] when the NZ Racing conference - which was a 'conference' of racing club delegates - was given the heave-ho in favour of a slick, professional ' management ' team and renamed itself NZTR [ inc ] a fair bit of racing knowledge and awareness of local conditions went with it. Parochialism was the death knell of progress, we were told, get rid of it and replace the old farts from club committees with professional managers....they've done well, haven't they ? elbow, Huey, We're Doomed and 1 other 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted July 11, 2019 2 hours ago, weasel57 said: Someone I know has a slice of a smart sprinter turning 6 soon ..has won 5 and black-type placed ....all earnings have gone to trainer.jockeys, vets, NZTR etc ...after 2.5 seasons racing is nil....but how do you put a price/value on the fun along the way? If he's won 5 and placed black type is he cost neutral , or has there also been top ups needed . If he's won 5 and placed in decent race and covered all costs it's not too bad imho , but if he hasn't covered costs that's a problem as he would be a horse of lifetime for the average owner , how many win 5 , not many .Let's say minimum 25k a year , 65k in bank would cover costs 2.5 years. You would have to assume he places fairly regularly as well to chip away at costs . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
weasel57 429 Report post Posted July 12, 2019 On 7/11/2019 at 1:27 PM, Red Rum said: If he's won 5 and placed black type is he cost neutral , or has there also been top ups needed . If he's won 5 and placed in decent race and covered all costs it's not too bad imho , but if he hasn't covered costs that's a problem as he would be a horse of lifetime for the average owner , how many win 5 , not many .Let's say minimum 25k a year , 65k in bank would cover costs 2.5 years. You would have to assume he places fairly regularly as well to chip away at costs . Almost cost neutral at present ...that includes capital outlay from Karaka ((Festival sale)..the upside is that 'he' is a 'she' and connections still hopeful of winning a Group or Listed race! My point is that, unless you get one good enough to win multiple races, you are never going to make money out of thoroughbred racing in NZ ..it has to be treated as a cost like your (weekly?) golf/bowls.tramping/fishing whatever you do for fun. Pam Robson, Red Rum, Huey and 1 other 3 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, weasel57 said: Almost cost neutral at present ...that includes capital outlay from Karaka ((Festival sale)..the upside is that 'he' is a 'she' and connections still hopeful of winning a Group or Listed race! My point is that, unless you get one good enough to win multiple races, you are never going to make money out of thoroughbred racing in NZ ..it has to be treated as a cost like your (weekly?) golf/bowls.tramping/fishing whatever you do for fun. Thanks Weasel , hopefully they get a decent sale at end of career. Gelding sadly be done for in weights no doubt and worth nothing at end. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...