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We're Doomed

Philosophical Question

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Just a philosophical question here. Strange things interest me. At Timaru this Friday 13 horses will be denied a start in the maiden 1,600m; either eliminated or balloted. Some of those horses have been eliminated or balloted every time they have tried to get a start for the last couple of months (Disco Deejay for example). They have no chance of getting a start next week at Oamaru as there is only a maiden 1,400m and this week there are enough maidens to run four fields worth of 1,200m and 1,600m maidens.

So, does NZTR have any obligation to try and ensure owners get a racing opportunity for their horses? Is that part of their role? Remembering some of those owners might have paid $20,000 or more for those horses and could be paying $20,000 a year to keep them in work. Are those owners likely to stay in the game? If they give up and say "fuck racing" who is to blame?

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I have been thinking about this for a while as I know a fair few people recently missing starts and getting pretty pissed off. 

I wonder if there is a place for a consolation race when there is enough noms to do so. Something like if it was for example a rating 65 worth 10k then run the consolation for 5k and winner takes all or 4k winner and 1k for second,my twist to it would be in the weight scale where you pick your weight to carry and rating points received will depend on your weight. 53kg=2 points. 62kgs=8 points and whatever else in between. Winner would get there full amount of points and 2nd halved.   

 

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12 minutes ago, Aaron Bidlake said:

I have been thinking about this for a while as I know a fair few people recently missing starts and getting pretty pissed off. 

I wonder if there is a place for a consolation race when there is enough noms to do so. Something like if it was for example a rating 65 worth 10k then run the consolation for 5k and winner takes all or 4k winner and 1k for second,my twist to it would be in the weight scale where you pick your weight to carry and rating points received will depend on your weight. 53kg=2 points. 62kgs=8 points and whatever else in between. Winner would get there full amount of points and 2nd halved.   

 

Programming 7 races doesn't help. Plenty of horses about to run 10 race cards. Programming rating 60s would help the congestion in the 65 class as well. Horses should be able to get a start at low key meetings and then aspire to get a run at feature meetings.

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10 minutes ago, napier said:

Got a feeling that clubs are only allowed to run 7 races on industry days - someone out there will know if this is correct......

You do have to wonder what is the point continuing if the industry can't afford to run a maiden race. Any other business would surely shut down in that situation. If you ran a bar with a queue of people outside, but couldn't afford to open because your costs of opening were greater than any possible returns then surely you would call it a day. Perhaps if the industry was being totally responsible management would start warning potential yearling buyers to enter at their own risk as there is a very real chance there will be no opportunities for them.

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1 hour ago, napier said:

Got a feeling that clubs are only allowed to run 7 races on industry days - someone out there will know if this is correct......

Usually 7 races and a race added and that depends on who the club is  if they'll split races

Te Aroha 9 races

Wanganui last week 8 races

Waverley 9 races

Rotorua 8 races etc etc

Its getting to be ridiculous , well even more so than previously look at this week in the CD 4 flat races available for horses this week the programming/calendar is absolutely clueless!

Most of the turnovers on recent race meetings are up on previous years, so if there is a reason why they can't add more races and give more horses/owners a go they should be communicating that with the industry or leave themselves some degree of flexibility around adding industry day race meetings etc.

Too busy releasing press releases telling everyone how busy they are and how supportive of RITA they are.

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1 hour ago, crustyngrizzly said:

How about a non tote event after the last race but with prize money or even before the first,that way you can also get a good track report.

We did used to have non tote races and meetings. Wouldn't work these days as punters would get pissed off if a horse they had been following finally won in a non tote race. And it would be a bit pointless having prize money but no betting to fund it.

I think the first thing we need is for NZTR or Rita, or whoever is running the show at the moment, to come out and say how viable it is to run an extra race. Is a $10,000 maiden race self supporting in the normal course of events? Are they restricting the number of races midweek so that horses are forced to race at weekend meetings? 

Programming seven races is doing a lot of damage. It would be nice to know the rationale behind it. If there are so many savings to be had closing down certain tracks, then surely at the same time it must be really cost effective for the industry to run 9 and 10 race programmes when there are heaps of horses about and all the infrastructure is already in place for the raceday. Perhaps it might be that the closed tracks are actually holding the types of meetings that others can't be bothered with and on dates that metropolitan tracks aren't interested in.

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When the Monday/Tuesday racing ' experiment ' was first mooted,  many of us - on here and elsewhere - tried to point out the futility of the exercise;  one of the negatives was exactly the point you raise,  namely the wear and tear on tracks,  the cost to jockeys and trainers etc to hold a racemeeting with 6 - 7 races.

That hasn't changed,  I've no idea as to the rationale behind running so few races other than that it is yet another airy-fairy notion from those who are devoid of constructive ideas.

I've yet to see a quantitative argument for closing tracks,  has anyone seen any figures to say how much will be saved by this?

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And I was of course wrong in my original post. 15 horses will miss a start in that particular race, not 13, as fields are limited to a mere 12 starters for that meeting. I am a bit perturbed by these clubs that can only start 12 horses. It isn't that many years ago that some of those clubs were starting 16 or even 18 horses. It must a worry that when the death-list tracks are closed down  many of the remaining clubs will only be able to start 12 horses.

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14 hours ago, Huey said:

Usually 7 races and a race added and that depends on who the club is  if they'll split races

Te Aroha 9 races

Wanganui last week 8 races

Waverley 9 races

Rotorua 8 races etc etc

Its getting to be ridiculous , well even more so than previously look at this week in the CD 4 flat races available for horses this week the programming/calendar is absolutely clueless!

Most of the turnovers on recent race meetings are up on previous years, so if there is a reason why they can't add more races and give more horses/owners a go they should be communicating that with the industry or leave themselves some degree of flexibility around adding industry day race meetings etc.

Too busy releasing press releases telling everyone how busy they are and how supportive of RITA they are.

Putting the squeeze  the amount of racing available  is a tactic we are going to have to get used to , less racing creates bigger fields and makes racing profitable . If anything the recent betting figures will encourage administrators to keep the pressure on and force owners and trainers grab every opportunity that's available to line up , bigger fields earn a lot more money but from a trainer or owners perspective races will be much harder to win .

If you have been struggling to win a race over the last few years then be prepared , it's about to get a lot harder .

EX Bernards blog

"" There were some encouraging figures around starter numbers and turnover on thoroughbred racing last week.  Some $7.36m was bet domestically on NZ Thoroughbred races, add to this approximately $10m in Australian turnover on the same races and it was a positive result.

In the north it was potentially a case of earlier abandonments having a positive spin-off for other clubs this week and demonstrated the importance of keeping field sizes up.

Across the week total turnover over the six meetings held was up 29 per cent compared with the previous year.  The number of races with less than eight runners more than halved and a total of 615 lined up, 147 more than the same week last year.""

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17 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

Just a philosophical question here. Strange things interest me. At Timaru this Friday 13 horses will be denied a start in the maiden 1,600m; either eliminated or balloted. Some of those horses have been eliminated or balloted every time they have tried to get a start for the last couple of months (Disco Deejay for example). They have no chance of getting a start next week at Oamaru as there is only a maiden 1,400m and this week there are enough maidens to run four fields worth of 1,200m and 1,600m maidens.

So, does NZTR have any obligation to try and ensure owners get a racing opportunity for their horses? Is that part of their role? Remembering some of those owners might have paid $20,000 or more for those horses and could be paying $20,000 a year to keep them in work. Are those owners likely to stay in the game? If they give up and say "fuck racing" who is to 

So what profit would be made for racing on a 10k maiden on a Friday  , only needs to be cost neutral. If running the race makes a loss for industry then all midweek races must be loss making so the industry is in fact dead .Everyone is there , the tracks ready and the office people and head office still all cost same if it's 7 8 9 10 races .

They could run regular ballot races , order entry first preference horses with most ballots in last two months .

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12 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

Putting the squeeze  the amount of racing available  is a tactic we are going to have to get used to , less racing creates bigger fields and makes racing profitable . If anything the recent betting figures will encourage administrators to keep the pressure on and force owners and trainers grab every opportunity that's available to line up , bigger fields earn a lot more money but from a trainer or owners perspective races will be much harder to win .

Based on that theory, they can't be too happy with two 7 horse fields for the $30,000 rating 82 races at Ruakaka this weekend. Mustn't be getting enough horses through the grades.

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27 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Based on that theory, they can't be too happy with two 7 horse fields for the $30,000 rating 82 races at Ruakaka this weekend. Mustn't be getting enough horses through the grades.

And one is going to be a six horse race as Irish Call is dual accepted.

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46 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

EX Bernards blog

"" There were some encouraging figures around starter numbers and turnover on thoroughbred racing last week.  Some $7.36m was bet domestically on NZ Thoroughbred races, add to this approximately $10m in Australian turnover on the same races and it was a positive result.

In the north it was potentially a case of earlier abandonments having a positive spin-off for other clubs this week and demonstrated the importance of keeping field sizes up.

Across the week total turnover over the six meetings held was up 29 per cent compared with the previous year.  The number of races with less than eight runners more than halved and a total of 615 lined up, 147 more than the same week last year.""

Anyone know if this includes the increase in turnover from the promotional offers?   So turnover may be up, but is 29% of this increase being returned to punters on the $30 money back offers?     My turnover with the TAB has gone from zero to a few hundred a week betting the promo races, as you pretty much cant lose on the offer with cash back for 2/3/4 placing, but is it really an increase in turnover if the figures are padded and not taking into account the thousands being paid back to punters on these races?

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Is it true race start times are dictated by Australia? i.e Sky Racing channel? I have heard this mentioned before, but I am unable to validate the claim. If true, it stinks. And could be the rationale behind limiting the number of races carded for a meeting, especially during limited hours of daylight during winter. 

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23 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

So, does NZTR have any obligation to try and ensure owners get a racing opportunity for their horses? Is that part of their role?... paying $20,000 a year to keep them in work. Are those owners likely to stay in the game? If they give up and say "fuck racing" who is to blame?

Yeah we pulled the pin on ownership as a syndicate...too costly.

Must be Tax Write-offs or some other scheme available to retain so many owners in the game 

Whats the inside oil ? LOL

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7 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

And I was of course wrong in my original post. 15 horses will miss a start in that particular race, not 13, as fields are limited to a mere 12 starters for that meeting. I am a bit perturbed by these clubs that can only start 12 horses. It isn't that many years ago that some of those clubs were starting 16 or even 18 horses. It must a worry that when the death-list tracks are closed down  many of the remaining clubs will only be able to start 12 horses.

The rail at Timaru is out three metres - when it is true they start 14.

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19 minutes ago, porky said:

Yeah we pulled the pin on ownership as a syndicate...too costly.

Must be Tax Write-offs or some other scheme available to retain so many owners in the game 

Whats the inside oil ? LOL

3k a month and cannot get a run for weeks with a fit horse, iam surprised many owners outside those that can do a bit themselves or on mates rates or mix both are left . There's a lot of good fun to be had with 3k a month or portions of that if in  a syndicate by  spending it on other things  . 3k a month ok if you got half decent horse running regularly with half a show .Take Disco Deejay the horse mentioned on thread , it's no show at all  of ever winning a dollar even if it runs but it cannot get a run to convince the owner for sure it won't win a dollar . Save the money sack it now .

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6 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

Based on that theory, they can't be too happy with two 7 horse fields for the $30,000 rating 82 races at Ruakaka this weekend. Mustn't be getting enough horses through the grades.

Correct , mazing how trainers pass up good stakes and of course this shows some tweeking of the rating system may be desirable  , this also shows some owners need to have a firm word with their trainers .

If the administrators are planning to put the squeeze on the local industry to force trainers to grab any opportunity to have a start then we are indeed entering a phase of reality , it's long been known that bigger fields are profitable to run but in the past NZTR has always pandered to owners , clubs and trainers at the expense of long term prosperity for the overall industry .

If we are to close tracks as Messara recommends then the remaining tracks down here will struggle to cope  with the extra demand on them , the logical solution is less local racing , which means more imported content onscreen but better stakes for the remaining races in NZ . RITA needs to increase stake funding or provide the same amount as before but divide it amongst less races , this will give the impression stakes have lifted , let's see what happens .

Don't forget currently the industry is borrowing $11 Million a year to keep stakes at todays level , how long can that continue ??

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7 minutes ago, Red Rum said:

3k a month and cannot get a run for weeks with a fit horse, iam surprised many owners outside those that can do a bit themselves or on mates rates or mix both are left . There's a lot of good fun to be had with 3k a month or portions of that if in  a syndicate by  spending it on other things  . 3k a month ok if you got half decent horse running regularly with half a show .Take Disco Deejay the horse mentioned on thread , it's no show at all  of ever winning a dollar even if it runs but it cannot get a run to convince the owner for sure it won't win a dollar . Save the money sack it now .

I agree. At $3,000 a month at least the poor bloody owner deserves a chance to go to the races. When that opportunity is denied by management incompetence it is amazing anyone remains in the game. It is worth noting also that quite often balloted horses, when they do get a start in the South, actually run a place, so they are not all no-hopers.

What I can never understand is why the trainers never seem to complain on behalf of their owners. 

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20 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

Correct , mazing how trainers pass up good stakes and of course this shows some tweeking of the rating system may be desirable  , this also shows some owners need to have a firm word with their trainers .

If the administrators are planning to put the squeeze on the local industry to force trainers to grab any opportunity to have a start then we are indeed entering a phase of reality , it's long been known that bigger fields are profitable to run but in the past NZTR has always pandered to owners , clubs and trainers at the expense of long term prosperity for the overall industry .

If we are to close tracks as Messara recommends then the remaining tracks down here will struggle to cope  with the extra demand on them , the logical solution is less local racing , which means more imported content onscreen but better stakes for the remaining races in NZ . RITA needs to increase stake funding or provide the same amount as before but divide it amongst less races , this will give the impression stakes have lifted , let's see what happens .

Don't forget currently the industry is borrowing $11 Million a year to keep stakes at todays level , how long can that continue ??

The trouble is that fewer races, with bigger stakes, even with bigger fields, doesn't increase total turnover. Traditionally, a late Friday afternoon race at the likes of Timaru with a decent sized field would do do a good turnover and be very sustainable. Somehow everything has gone wrong. 

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