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We're Doomed

Time to end Jumps in the South?

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4 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

The only two at Riccarton who consistently had a jumper or two - K Hughes and N. Ridley - had to rely on staff [ showjumping girls ]  to get them going for a start,  and a reluctant Lee Callaway to qualify.

Lee does actually have one,  but couldn't get a rider for Dunedin, so not much encouragement for him ; and as he is suspended, couldn't ride it himself .....think he's pleased about that..!

Danny Crozier and Ross Beckett will campaign outside jumpers,  but have none of their own and the same re. riders applies to them.

That is the situation.  It's hardly surprising there is little interest locally.

A few years ago Andre Klein facilitated U.K jump riders to come out for their off season,  and work for southern trainers.   Locally we had Charlie Wallis and Andrew Glassonbury.   Andrew was magic over a fence,  and things were looking up for a while .   Charlie actually boarded at mine for a while,  lovely young fella,  but - as he said - I realise we are ' on holiday '  but I didn't come all this way to ride somebody's breakers for $400.00 a week...and as well there was no 'guarantee' of rides in their contracts [ if they had one ].    I used to get so angry that these boys were not given more opportunity.  Therein lies the problem,  the wages structure and working conditions in England for the likes of these young men working in good yards makes it just not worth while to come here,  and the attitude of some local trainers as well meant they weren't keen to come back.

I can't obviously comment about current N.I based UK and Irish riders and their employment arrangements.

I remember at Woodville for years there were a few good jumps riders and ample  track riders  that did a lot of the trackwork riding as well as schooling , but they have all left the industry now because of the same problem , Paid peanut's treated like slaves , promised race day jumps  rides for schooling horses repeatedly and then trainers giving race day rides to higher profile jockeys and we get the situation we are in now and wonder where the real problems lie

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5 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

The only two at Riccarton who consistently had a jumper or two - K Hughes and N. Ridley - had to rely on staff [ showjumping girls ]  to get them going for a start,  and a reluctant Lee Callaway to qualify.

Lee does actually have one,  but couldn't get a rider for Dunedin, so not much encouragement for him ; and as he is suspended, couldn't ride it himself .....think he's pleased about that..!

Danny Crozier and Ross Beckett will campaign outside jumpers,  but have none of their own and the same re. riders applies to them.

That is the situation.  It's hardly surprising there is little interest locally.

A few years ago Andre Klein facilitated U.K jump riders to come out for their off season,  and work for southern trainers.   Locally we had Charlie Wallis and Andrew Glassonbury.   Andrew was magic over a fence,  and things were looking up for a while .   Charlie actually boarded at mine for a while,  lovely young fella,  but - as he said - I realise we are ' on holiday '  but I didn't come all this way to ride somebody's breakers for $400.00 a week...and as well there was no 'guarantee' of rides in their contracts [ if they had one ].    I used to get so angry that these boys were not given more opportunity.  Therein lies the problem,  the wages structure and working conditions in England for the likes of these young men working in good yards makes it just not worth while to come here,  and the attitude of some local trainers as well meant they weren't keen to come back.

I can't obviously comment about current N.I based UK and Irish riders and their employment arrangements.

Thank you for that insight Pam. So it is very much an infrastructural problem that won't be solved by just increasing a few stakes. It obviously needs a willingness on the part of someone to take charge and try and make it work. I see there is a jumps forum during National week. I wonder if they will have some creative ideas.

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Love the jumpers, the only race meeting I actually attend is a jumps day!  Programming seems to be a big part, does it also follow on from poor programming for stayers, and loss of interest in breeding stayers. I have shares in several horses and there are often comments from the trainers of issues with where the stayers are going next because of programming. The Aussie system appears to be working, seems to be plenty of Kiwi horses head over there for jumping now too, along with the stayers, which depletes the ranks. Hope, like all else racing, something is done to keep the wheels rolling!

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There is no vision,  and little interest from those at the helm,  who unfortunately happen not to be horsemen either in the majority of cases.

I have to agree with P4P  - respective of his opinion of me -  we have all asked for the situation we are in,  we've sat on our arses and allowed mediocrity to take us over.

Was chatting to both Neill Ridley and Danny Crozier this morning,  both confirm what I said earlier,  lack of riders is the biggest problem for us locally, followed by indifferent programming.

Will be interesting to see if any bright ideas comes out of the discussion at National time.

Above poster Commonsensical had it spot on....to a lesser extent,  we down here are in a similar situation with the perceived lack of quality flat riders.  I agree,  the selection is very moderate..but without support and decent tuition there will be no improvement in either numbers or ability.

There's a mad rush to put on a flash jock from the N.I,  and gradually support for the local product erodes until there will be,  soon,  no local product - only Mauritians and Asians trying to fill the gaps.

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6 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

There is no vision,  and little interest from those at the helm,  who unfortunately happen not to be horsemen either in the majority of cases.

I have to agree with P4P  - respective of his opinion of me -  we have all asked for the situation we are in,  we've sat on our arses and allowed mediocrity to take us over.

Was chatting to both Neill Ridley and Danny Crozier this morning,  both confirm what I said earlier,  lack of riders is the biggest problem for us locally, followed by indifferent programming.

Will be interesting to see if any bright ideas comes out of the discussion at National time.

Above poster Commonsensical had it spot on....to a lesser extent,  we down here are in a similar situation with the perceived lack of quality flat riders.  I agree,  the selection is very moderate..but without support and decent tuition there will be no improvement in either numbers or ability.

There's a mad rush to put on a flash jock from the N.I,  and gradually support for the local product erodes until there will be,  soon,  no local product - only Mauritians and Asians trying to fill the gaps.

$4000 for 2nd good one Pam

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6 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

There is no vision,  and little interest from those at the helm,  who unfortunately happen not to be horsemen either in the majority of cases.

I have to agree with P4P  - respective of his opinion of me -  we have all asked for the situation we are in,  we've sat on our arses and allowed mediocrity to take us over.

Was chatting to both Neill Ridley and Danny Crozier this morning,  both confirm what I said earlier,  lack of riders is the biggest problem for us locally, followed by indifferent programming.

Will be interesting to see if any bright ideas comes out of the discussion at National time.

Above poster Commonsensical had it spot on....to a lesser extent,  we down here are in a similar situation with the perceived lack of quality flat riders.  I agree,  the selection is very moderate..but without support and decent tuition there will be no improvement in either numbers or ability.

There's a mad rush to put on a flash jock from the N.I,  and gradually support for the local product erodes until there will be,  soon,  no local product - only Mauritians and Asians trying to fill the gaps.

Nice run by yours in first , looked to jump round very economically and tidy. Good luck next time out .Win won't be far away . 

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2 minutes ago, Red Rum said:

Nice run by yours in first , looked to jump round very economically and tidy. Good luck next time out .Win won't be far away . 

Thanks, both of you...he was unlucky first time out to be tangled up by the unfortunate The Bieber.....but not as unlucky as that poor bugger thank goodness.

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On 6/27/2019 at 12:00 PM, Pam Robson said:

I can't answer that either, not having any input whatsoever on programming.

The majority complain a lot but I haven't heard anything constructive - about anything - for a good while.

It doesn’t help that whoever does the programming in the South won’t card high weights alongside what jumping races that are carded, I’m sure it would be easier to attract more riders if more high weights were carded - even if those riders are visiting North Islanders.

Remember when the ‘approved’ jumping venues were announced years ago? Timaru, Wingatui, Riverton Riccarton and Oamaru were the approved venues. 

Oamaru stopped running jumping races, not sure why, and Riccarton only hosts the Grand National meeting with no lead up jumps meetings. So a less races coupled with the uncertainty  of  being able to engage a jockey on race day leads to a reluctance from owners and trainers to school horses,. This in turn has lead to a lack of SI jumps jocks as well as horses.

I’m not sure on a way forward, but with Timaru and Riverton tagged for closure, that is two venues that will potentially be gone. Riccarton only hosts the GN meeting, so you are down to Wingatui and possibly Oamaru as venues.

Perhaps more jumps races should be carded in the SI, it might attract more owners and horses and hopefully jockeys - dreams are free  :D 

 

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One of the most enjoyable days I’ve had at the races was when high forty won the GN at riccarton

to see the crowd stand and cheer it home over the last furlong after a gruelling trip and all those jumps , it was awesome

real racing.

no slipper, no sheiks, no fake tans and sadly no bookies on course , that’s another story .

Zelda and Boris loved it too, despite the arctic conditions :rcf-shocked-1:

promote jumps racing :rcf-in-love:

 

 

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2 hours ago, coro fan said:

It doesn’t help that whoever does the programming in the South won’t card high weights alongside what jumping races that are carded, I’m sure it would be easier to attract more riders if more high weights were carded - even if those riders are visiting North Islanders.

Remember when the ‘approved’ jumping venues were announced years ago? Timaru, Wingatui, Riverton Riccarton and Oamaru were the approved venues. 

Oamaru stopped running jumping races, not sure why, and Riccarton only hosts the Grand National meeting with no lead up jumps meetings. So a less races coupled with the uncertainty  of  being able to engage a jockey on race day leads to a reluctance from owners and trainers to school horses,. This in turn has lead to a lack of SI jumps jocks as well as horses.

I’m not sure on a way forward, but with Timaru and Riverton tagged for closure, that is two venues that will potentially be gone. Riccarton only hosts the GN meeting, so you are down to Wingatui and possibly Oamaru as venues.

Perhaps more jumps races should be carded in the SI, it might attract more owners and horses and hopefully jockeys - dreams are free  :D 

 

Agree re. highweights..has been a bone of contention for me for ages.

As for the approved venues...I think the absence of Oamaru from the jumping 'ranks'  might have something to do with the unravelling of Dunedin from Gallop South,  someone may be able to confirm that.   Certainly,  when Wingatui was remodelled a few years ago Oamaru took all the jumps races for that region.   Can't comment about Riverton,  other than that it would be a crying shame to see it go...but as far as Canterbury is concerned,  I think Timaru is safe as long as the allweather DOESN'T go in at Riccarton.

 

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56 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

Agree re. highweights..has been a bone of contention for me for ages.

As for the approved venues...I think the absence of Oamaru from the jumping 'ranks'  might have something to do with the unravelling of Dunedin from Gallop South,  someone may be able to confirm that.   Certainly,  when Wingatui was remodelled a few years ago Oamaru took all the jumps races for that region.   Can't comment about Riverton,  other than that it would be a crying shame to see it go...but as far as Canterbury is concerned,  I think Timaru is safe as long as the allweather DOESN'T go in at Riccarton.

 

When you consider that we have seen good and dead tracks at Oamaru, Timaru and Waimate over the last few weeks, and Ashburton is currently showing dead for this coming week, then I would consider building an all-weather track at Riccarton to be possibly the first equal stupidest waste of money I have ever seen in Racing.

And yes, I am pretty sure Wingatui would not normally have raced at this time of the year, it would normally have been a jumps meeting at Oamaru.

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27 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

When you consider that we have seen good and dead tracks at Oamaru, Timaru and Waimate over the last few weeks, and Ashburton is currently showing dead for this coming week, then I would consider building an all-weather track at Riccarton to be possibly the first equal stupidest waste of money I have ever seen in Racing.

And yes, I am pretty sure Wingatui would not normally have raced at this time of the year, it would normally have been a jumps meeting at Oamaru.

Riccarton are not going to get an AWT . Does anyone in the know have an idea of what stage planning they are at . Any idea as to surface . Back in the day they used to have hurdle racing on the All weather at Southwell and Lingfield . Was a horse that won weekly at Southwell through winter  till they canned it as too dangerous .

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55 minutes ago, Red Rum said:

Riccarton are not going to get an AWT . Does anyone in the know have an idea of what stage planning they are at . Any idea as to surface . Back in the day they used to have hurdle racing on the All weather at Southwell and Lingfield . Was a horse that won weekly at Southwell through winter  till they canned it as too dangerous .

No planning as far as I am aware....same as to surface.

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17 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

No planning as far as I am aware....same as to surface.

From an outsider looking in I would guess this time next year little will have changed in NZ racing , be same stakemoney   just less tracks and no AWT. 

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1 hour ago, Red Rum said:

From an outsider looking in I would guess this time next year little will have changed in NZ racing , be same stakemoney   just less tracks and no AWT. 

Yep less tracks that cost the industry nothing to operate.

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So I have signed up to respond to this post, Hi everyone.

We (SI jumpers) have several challenges.

-suitable schooling venues

-suitable people to school especially in company

-zero and I mean zero jumping trials, point to points ect

-support for jockeys to come down

-struggle to get enough jockeys to ride the horses that want to start

-jumps meetings day after each other for NI and SI race meetings

-no maiden races to progress horses into open ranks

-numbers game

 

For is us our closest steeple schooling course is Riverton, some of the biggest fences in the county, next closest 3hr drive to Wingatui where it it often super wet so not ideal for horses starting out.

 

We have Stu Higgins down here who does a great job but trying to organise schooling several horses together is a nightmare to get everyone’s schedules to met up with the lack of jockeys, and trainers end up riding their horses

 

When we started having jumpers 12 odd years ago there was jumping trials held in Oamaru with professional jockeys an a heap of jumps trainers...Gerrard, Richards, Stalker, Thompson, Gordon/McKay...even Pitty had a couple.

 

Was talking to a jumps jockey yesterday, his boss actually charges him for days off to come to SI jumps meetings, comes for 2 rides, flights $500 plus....doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that it doesn’t pay for jockeys to come down.

 

There are horses that are waiting to get a start over jumps but just can’t get enough jockeys to come down especially when there is a meeting the next day up north for more $ usually and more rides. Owners get frustrated with the wait and paying more $ without a chance of running

 

With the first and usually only men field at National week unless you have an up and comer it’s hard to beat the open class horses with a bread and butter horse

 

We just don’t have the number of winter horses running around as the north island, with natural attrition of jumpers, retirement, fatal injuries and good ones heading to chase more cash we are never going to have the same size fields, but we have had some quality horses come out of the SI.

What we will be proposing for help at National week:

-Schooling Venue south of Wingatui for chases, with similar set up at Phar  Lap (12 hour return trip for us)

-Jump jockeys given “grants” to come South maybe once a month in summer months for schooling purposes 

- Incentives for airlines to subsides seats for jockeys 

-Southern Series jockey premiership with cash bonus for 1st, 2nd, 3rd

-pleading with bosses to allow staff (jumps jockeys) to come down

-don’t have race meetings same week or close together 

-hold mdn races 

 

These are just our thoughts with what we have struck and what we will be pushing to get help with.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Wright Road said:

So I have signed up to respond to this post, Hi everyone.

We (SI jumpers) have several challenges.

-suitable schooling venues

-suitable people to school especially in company

-zero and I mean zero jumping trials, point to points ect

-support for jockeys to come down

-struggle to get enough jockeys to ride the horses that want to start

-jumps meetings day after each other for NI and SI race meetings

-no maiden races to progress horses into open ranks

-numbers game

 

For is us our closest steeple schooling course is Riverton, some of the biggest fences in the county, next closest 3hr drive to Wingatui where it it often super wet so not ideal for horses starting out.

 

We have Stu Higgins down here who does a great job but trying to organise schooling several horses together is a nightmare to get everyone’s schedules to met up with the lack of jockeys, and trainers end up riding their horses

 

When we started having jumpers 12 odd years ago there was jumping trials held in Oamaru with professional jockeys an a heap of jumps trainers...Gerrard, Richards, Stalker, Thompson, Gordon/McKay...even Pitty had a couple.

 

Was talking to a jumps jockey yesterday, his boss actually charges him for days off to come to SI jumps meetings, comes for 2 rides, flights $500 plus....doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that it doesn’t pay for jockeys to come down.

 

There are horses that are waiting to get a start over jumps but just can’t get enough jockeys to come down especially when there is a meeting the next day up north for more $ usually and more rides. Owners get frustrated with the wait and paying more $ without a chance of running

 

With the first and usually only men field at National week unless you have an up and comer it’s hard to beat the open class horses with a bread and butter horse

 

We just don’t have the number of winter horses running around as the north island, with natural attrition of jumpers, retirement, fatal injuries and good ones heading to chase more cash we are never going to have the same size fields, but we have had some quality horses come out of the SI.

What we will be proposing for help at National week:

-Schooling Venue south of Wingatui for chases, with similar set up at Phar  Lap (12 hour return trip for us)

-Jump jockeys given “grants” to come South maybe once a month in summer months for schooling purposes 

- Incentives for airlines to subsides seats for jockeys 

-Southern Series jockey premiership with cash bonus for 1st, 2nd, 3rd

-pleading with bosses to allow staff (jumps jockeys) to come down

-don’t have race meetings same week or close together 

-hold mdn races 

 

These are just our thoughts with what we have struck and what we will be pushing to get help with.

 

 

Hope you can get to Ricc to give your thoughts at the Jumping group meeting.

For the record, I offered to reimburse Nick Downs yesterday for his expenses, he declined but the offer still stands for next time.

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12 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

Hope you can get to Ricc to give your thoughts at the Jumping group meeting.

For the record, I offered to reimburse Nick Downs yesterday for his expenses, he declined but the offer still stands for next time.

I seem to remember that NZTR used to give clubs a payment for the purpose of assisting visiting riders...does that still happen?

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1 hour ago, Wright Road said:

So I have signed up to respond to this post, Hi everyone.

We (SI jumpers) have several challenges.

-suitable schooling venues

-suitable people to school especially in company

-zero and I mean zero jumping trials, point to points ect

-support for jockeys to come down

-struggle to get enough jockeys to ride the horses that want to start

-jumps meetings day after each other for NI and SI race meetings

-no maiden races to progress horses into open ranks

-numbers game

 

For is us our closest steeple schooling course is Riverton, some of the biggest fences in the county, next closest 3hr drive to Wingatui where it it often super wet so not ideal for horses starting out.

 

We have Stu Higgins down here who does a great job but trying to organise schooling several horses together is a nightmare to get everyone’s schedules to met up with the lack of jockeys, and trainers end up riding their horses

 

When we started having jumpers 12 odd years ago there was jumping trials held in Oamaru with professional jockeys an a heap of jumps trainers...Gerrard, Richards, Stalker, Thompson, Gordon/McKay...even Pitty had a couple.

 

Was talking to a jumps jockey yesterday, his boss actually charges him for days off to come to SI jumps meetings, comes for 2 rides, flights $500 plus....doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out that it doesn’t pay for jockeys to come down.

 

There are horses that are waiting to get a start over jumps but just can’t get enough jockeys to come down especially when there is a meeting the next day up north for more $ usually and more rides. Owners get frustrated with the wait and paying more $ without a chance of running

 

With the first and usually only men field at National week unless you have an up and comer it’s hard to beat the open class horses with a bread and butter horse

 

We just don’t have the number of winter horses running around as the north island, with natural attrition of jumpers, retirement, fatal injuries and good ones heading to chase more cash we are never going to have the same size fields, but we have had some quality horses come out of the SI.

What we will be proposing for help at National week:

-Schooling Venue south of Wingatui for chases, with similar set up at Phar  Lap (12 hour return trip for us)

-Jump jockeys given “grants” to come South maybe once a month in summer months for schooling purposes 

- Incentives for airlines to subsides seats for jockeys 

-Southern Series jockey premiership with cash bonus for 1st, 2nd, 3rd

-pleading with bosses to allow staff (jumps jockeys) to come down

-don’t have race meetings same week or close together 

-hold mdn races 

 

These are just our thoughts with what we have struck and what we will be pushing to get help with.

 

 

Thank you very much for that informed contribution. Very interesting to read. I think the only way things will improve in the South is if the likes of Pam and yourself and some others get together to organise everything. The current management really have zero ideas or interest. To be honest I think they are trying to destroy jumping in the south to save themselves the hassle. I am staggered the jumps jockeys have to pay their own way south. I always imagined the clubs or  NZTR would subsidise their flights.  I wish you all luck. Like many things in Racing, it isn't actually that hard to get it right. Given the size of jumps fields in the south currently, the clubs are virtually subsidising every starter so they might as well formalise that system and pay a starters incentive to get things rolling.

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13 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

Thank you very much for that informed contribution. Very interesting to read. I think the only way things will improve in the South is if the likes of Pam and yourself and some others get together to organise everything. The current management really have zero ideas or interest. To be honest I think they are trying to destroy jumping in the south to save themselves the hassle. I am staggered the jumps jockeys have to pay their own way south. I always imagined the clubs or  NZTR would subsidise their flights.  I wish you all luck. Like many things in Racing, it isn't actually that hard to get it right. Given the size of jumps fields in the south currently, the clubs are virtually subsidising every starter so they might as well formalise that system and pay a starters incentive to get things rolling.

Jockeys are “given” $300 but as yet some haven’t received it from the start of the season.

I think more jumps races and at least one high weight each jumps day would be more incentive for jockeys. We have some loyal jockeys that come year in year out and it would be nice to increase that pool, if the jockeys come the horses will come and the fields will improve.

JumpsNZ used to have such a voice at this time of the year, encouraging owners, incentives (we even got a all expenses paid trip to Trentham with our horse one year), and open discussion on how to improve things. 

We hope that this can return.

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On 6/29/2019 at 1:34 PM, Shad said:

On a different note, anyone know if Dee and gee went to Australia,  have not heard anything of her.

Hi Shad

 

I searched the exported horses list for April, May and June, and didn’t see Dee and Gee, so I don’t think so. I could have missed the name though - sometimes I need to go to Specsavers :D

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