Time to end Jumps in the South?

[We're Doomed 4,855]

I thought it might be time to throw out an actual Racing subject for a change, with all of the other subjects being debated at the moment.

Is it time just to pull the pin on jumps racing in the SI? I note Wingatui this week has 6 hurdlers going around in an open $20,000 race, despite mustering just one hurdle win among the whole field. And the Chasers have a field of just 5, also going around for $20,000 in an open class race, despite just two steeple wins amongst the whole field.

So it can't really be argued that the money isn't there. $40,000 for 11 fairly ordinary types is surely not sustainable, and the money could be put to better use elsewhere: 2yos and 3yos perhaps.  There aren't many trainers involved, so really would anyone notice if jumps racing stopped in the South after this Grand National meeting?

There used to be a time when all winter meetings had to programme a jumps race, but now we have got used to whole programmes purely for flat horses in the winter months. There are enough flat horses in the South to sustain the current number of meetings without the jumpers. The CJC, as the lead club in the South, has lost all interest, except for the National Week novelty. There appears to be no desire or enthusiasm to try and make jumping work. I suspect the powers that be have actually tried to run it down to the point where they can say: "that's it, there is no interest, jumps racing is finished." Well, we have now reached that point. Would anyone really notice, or care, if it stopped?

[Patiti 274]

A very good  question that perhaps RITA will address as it looks to reset the industry.

An area that has been neglected by NZTR.

I think that jumping is an integral part of racing and must continue.

[Pam Robson 1,547]

1 hour ago, We're Doomed said:

I thought it might be time to throw out an actual Racing subject for a change, with all of the other subjects being debated at the moment.

Is it time just to pull the pin on jumps racing in the SI? I note Wingatui this week has 6 hurdlers going around in an open $20,000 race, despite mustering just one hurdle win among the whole field. And the Chasers have a field of just 5, also going around for $20,000 in an open class race, despite just two steeple wins amongst the whole field.

So it can't really be argued that the money isn't there. $40,000 for 11 fairly ordinary types is surely not sustainable, and the money could be put to better use elsewhere: 2yos and 3yos perhaps.  There aren't many trainers involved, so really would anyone notice if jumps racing stopped in the South after this Grand National meeting?

There used to be a time when all winter meetings had to programme a jumps race, but now we have got used to whole programmes purely for flat horses in the winter months. There are enough flat horses in the South to sustain the current number of meetings without the jumpers. The CJC, as the lead club in the South, has lost all interest, except for the National Week novelty. There appears to be no desire or enthusiasm to try and make jumping work. I suspect the powers that be have actually tried to run it down to the point where they can say: "that's it, there is no interest, jumps racing is finished." Well, we have now reached that point. Would anyone really notice, or care, if it stopped?

I would...but I'm in the minority for sure.

[Red Rum 1,833]

2 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I thought it might be time to throw out an actual Racing subject for a change, with all of the other subjects being debated at the moment.

Is it time just to pull the pin on jumps racing in the SI? I note Wingatui this week has 6 hurdlers going around in an open $20,000 race, despite mustering just one hurdle win among the whole field. And the Chasers have a field of just 5, also going around for $20,000 in an open class race, despite just two steeple wins amongst the whole field.

So it can't really be argued that the money isn't there. $40,000 for 11 fairly ordinary types is surely not sustainable, and the money could be put to better use elsewhere: 2yos and 3yos perhaps.  There aren't many trainers involved, so really would anyone notice if jumps racing stopped in the South after this Grand National meeting?

There used to be a time when all winter meetings had to programme a jumps race, but now we have got used to whole programmes purely for flat horses in the winter months. There are enough flat horses in the South to sustain the current number of meetings without the jumpers. The CJC, as the lead club in the South, has lost all interest, except for the National Week novelty. There appears to be no desire or enthusiasm to try and make jumping work. I suspect the powers that be have actually tried to run it down to the point where they can say: "that's it, there is no interest, jumps racing is finished." Well, we have now reached that point. Would anyone really notice, or care, if it stopped?

Slow horses off flat never going to be high class . Most of the top line jumpers in only countries that have serious jump racing UK, Ireland and France bred for one thing , jump racing , ex flat horses do win good races but they need to be good and most don't hit the heights over the big fences .

Keep an eye on On Kileys Run in Aussie . A real proper jumps pedigree , bred for the job. Think he had a point to point outing at Down Royal in Northern Ireland a couple years back but has won his  last two steeplechase trials in Victoria .  Be interesting to see how he goes around the flatter quicker Aussie courses more suited to ex flat horses as they brush through tops of  fences.

[We're Doomed 4,855]

1 hour ago, Red Rum said:

Slow horses off flat never going to be high class . Most of the top line jumpers in only countries that have serious jump racing UK, Ireland and France bred for one thing , jump racing , ex flat horses do win good races but they need to be good and most don't hit the heights over the big fences .

Keep an eye on On Kileys Run in Aussie . A real proper jumps pedigree , bred for the job. Think he had a point to point outing at Down Royal in Northern Ireland a couple years back but has won his  last two steeplechase trials in Victoria .  Be interesting to see how he goes around the flatter quicker Aussie courses more suited to ex flat horses as they brush through tops of  fences.

We have actually had some pretty good flat horses turn to jumping in NZ over the years. mostly hurdling. And in Australia they often mix hurdling and flat racing, which I am a big fan off.

[We're Doomed 4,855]

2 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

I would...but I'm in the minority for sure.

I am a fan of jumps racing myself Pam, but there seems to be no real interest from either trainers or administrators. In the SI in particular it has been very poorly managed. I have no idea why they don't run maidens and 0-1 win races for jumpers to give them confidence and generate a bit of form as they work through the grades. It seems strange to me that they programme open ended jumps races and then when maiden or at best one win horses pay up they run them as $20,000 open races, weird really.

I would like to see more emphasis on hurdlers since there is more scope for better fields then. I think the season needs to run into the Spring so they get better tracks, and there needs to be encouragement for horses to mix flat and jumps racing, as they do in Australia; no idea how that might be achieved.

I don't really blame trainers for not getting involved this season as there is no real encouragement for them, but do you think there would be any interest from trainers if the season was better organised? Canterbury trainers don't seem interested at all. I know you have a hurdler and the Parsons have their good jumper, but beyond that there doesn't seem to be much interest in Canterbury. Surely the industry can't really sustain another jumps season like this one? There must be some concern for the National meeting. Most of the fields will have to come from the North.

[TurnyTom 1,535]

I say can them, there is a total lack of interest - even my local CJC has canned them save but for National week

[Red Rum 1,833]

15 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

We have actually had some pretty good flat horses turn to jumping in NZ over the years. mostly hurdling. And in Australia they often mix hurdling and flat racing, which I am a big fan off.

Zabenz and Our Armageddon  done really well up in UK after flat careers here  in last 15 or so years ,  Our Armageddon ex Myers trained won at Cheltenham Festival and Zabenz ran with credit there , and went around for years in good races .

Probably best at moment mixing jobs up there are Max Dynamite and Wicklow Brave but those big Champion Hurdles , Nationals and Gold Cups normally won by horses brought  via point to points then   running in the bumpers or imported  from France after running well there .Big Derby sale in Ireland this week for young stock , turnover many millions for store horses.

Mind you one of my all time favorite hurdlers Istabraq was a John Gosden reject . . Problem is now these jump yards need to fight off the Aussies and Qatar/Bahrain buyers  at the end of year sales for best out of big flat yards .

As for Riccarton , Northerners don't travel down GN meeting would be done for .

[Pam Robson 1,547]

I don't have the answers...but I do think the demise of highweights has some part to play.

I wouldn't have had my guy qualified if I wasn't very fortunate to have an English lad and former jump rider working for me.

Kevin Hughes sent his handy Speedy Jax to Aus recently, as be said, no riders, and the practice hurdles aren't even up and the first jumps race is in  a fortnight...

Canterbury is, these days, typically too hard to risk more than a quiet pop round for months...it's even on the hard side now with several weeks fine weather and hard frosts. The course proper is, of course, sodden...but that is of no use for schooling.

I don't see why the May meeting couldn't host hurdles at least, the Haast steeplechase used to kick of the season here in Canterbury, run over a modified course.

The biggest difficulty is definitely lack of riders.

 

[We're Doomed 4,855]

A couple of hurdle races used to really tune up some horses for flat racing; they don't get that chance these days.

[tim vince 985]

I so love jumping races.whats gone wrong down there.

[Red Rum 1,833]

22 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

I don't have the answers...but I do think the demise of highweights has some part to play.

I wouldn't have had my guy qualified if I wasn't very fortunate to have an English lad and former jump rider working for me.

Kevin Hughes sent his handy Speedy Jax to Aus recently, as be said, no riders, and the practice hurdles aren't even up and the first jumps race is in  a fortnight...

Canterbury is, these days, typically too hard to risk more than a quiet pop round for months...it's even on the hard side now with several weeks fine weather and hard frosts. The course proper is, of course, sodden...but that is of no use for schooling.

I don't see why the May meeting couldn't host hurdles at least, the Haast steeplechase used to kick of the season here in Canterbury, run over a modified course.

The biggest difficulty is definitely lack of riders.

 

And Speedy Jax has won  a bucket of cash in Oz and will win more . The good jumpers here are proved good enough for Oz especially anything ex Myers that goes to OZ. 

It must be tough on a yard like Kevin's as he can train a jumper real good.

[We're Doomed 4,855]

I am intrigued Pam whether the trainers have much input into how racing is run in the south? Surely some of them must be as bright as those on club committees, and they have more at stake than club committees. I can just imagine the trainer of a handy 3yo having to ring the owners as say; "Bad news sorry, the bugger can stay, we will have to put him aside until he is 4".

[We're Doomed 4,855]

27 minutes ago, Red Rum said:

And Speedy Jax has won  a bucket of cash in Oz and will win more . The good jumpers here are proved good enough for Oz especially anything ex Myers that goes to OZ. 

It must be tough on a yard like Kevin's as he can train a jumper real good.

Yes, he has won a $75,000 race and $30,000 race so far, so good on him.

[Red Rum 1,833]

5 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Yes, he has won a $75,000 race and $30,000 race so far, so good on him.

Wonder if old Eric the Bee still knocking around in paddock, he was good out of that yard. I think he went over to Dermot Welds for short time after a Stateside run but didn't get to races there . He certainly got back to form on his return here . He would be an old horse now . 

[Insider 3,947]

I say, let it be based on the user pays scenario. 

In other words, fund the stakes out of betting returns or at least pro rata. 

Quite simply the jumpers would be racing for peanuts if it was based that way  

Because they currently are not, they are being subsided, and that’s wrong. 

Dump them from next year and move on. 

It would be more cost effective than closing down Waimate or some other volunteer supported track. 

Liz

[Shad 1,554]

If the south jumps go, may as well can the north to.

[Blue 1,095]

17 hours ago, Red Rum said:

 

Keep an eye on On Kileys Run in Aussie . A real proper jumps pedigree , bred for the job. Think he had a point to point outing at Down Royal in Northern Ireland a couple years back but has won his  last two steeplechase trials in Victoria .  Be interesting to see how he goes around the flatter quicker Aussie courses more suited to ex flat horses as they brush through tops of  fences.

Interesting that the horse had an outing in Ireland. Was he bred there? I'm only interested because 'On Kiley's Run' is the title of a poem by Banjo Paterson, so essentially Australian.

[Pam Robson 1,547]

14 hours ago, Red Rum said:

Wonder if old Eric the Bee still knocking around in paddock, he was good out of that yard. I think he went over to Dermot Welds for short time after a Stateside run but didn't get to races there . He certainly got back to form on his return here . He would be an old horse now . 

Eric had a great retirement,  hunting with Pam Hughes,  then as a paddock buddy at a lovely spelling property.

He was euthanased a few years ago after failing health.

[Pam Robson 1,547]

15 hours ago, We're Doomed said:

I am intrigued Pam whether the trainers have much input into how racing is run in the south? Surely some of them must be as bright as those on club committees, and they have more at stake than club committees. I can just imagine the trainer of a handy 3yo having to ring the owners as say; "Bad news sorry, the bugger can stay, we will have to put him aside until he is 4".

I can't answer that either, not having any input whatsoever on programming.

The majority complain a lot but I haven't heard anything constructive - about anything - for a good while.

[Pam Robson 1,547]

15 hours ago, Red Rum said:

And Speedy Jax has won  a bucket of cash in Oz and will win more . The good jumpers here are proved good enough for Oz especially anything ex Myers that goes to OZ. 

It must be tough on a yard like Kevin's as he can train a jumper real good.

The only two at Riccarton who consistently had a jumper or two - K Hughes and N. Ridley - had to rely on staff [ showjumping girls ]  to get them going for a start,  and a reluctant Lee Callaway to qualify.

Lee does actually have one,  but couldn't get a rider for Dunedin, so not much encouragement for him ; and as he is suspended, couldn't ride it himself .....think he's pleased about that..!

Danny Crozier and Ross Beckett will campaign outside jumpers,  but have none of their own and the same re. riders applies to them.

That is the situation.  It's hardly surprising there is little interest locally.

A few years ago Andre Klein facilitated U.K jump riders to come out for their off season,  and work for southern trainers.   Locally we had Charlie Wallis and Andrew Glassonbury.   Andrew was magic over a fence,  and things were looking up for a while .   Charlie actually boarded at mine for a while,  lovely young fella,  but - as he said - I realise we are ' on holiday '  but I didn't come all this way to ride somebody's breakers for $400.00 a week...and as well there was no 'guarantee' of rides in their contracts [ if they had one ].    I used to get so angry that these boys were not given more opportunity.  Therein lies the problem,  the wages structure and working conditions in England for the likes of these young men working in good yards makes it just not worth while to come here,  and the attitude of some local trainers as well meant they weren't keen to come back.

I can't obviously comment about current N.I based UK and Irish riders and their employment arrangements.

[rdytdy 5,341]

14 hours ago, Shad said:

If the south jumps go, may as well can the north to.

Why would you do that?  Jumps racing is very strong in the North with very good numbers.

So good in fact that races get split into two races with the numbers around.  

[Red Rum 1,833]

4 hours ago, Blue said:

Interesting that the horse had an outing in Ireland. Was he bred there? I'm only interested because 'On Kiley's Run' is the title of a poem by Banjo Paterson, so essentially Australian.

Bred in Ireland , went through 2016 Derby Sale as an  unnamed 3 yo at 30k Euros,  dam is a half sister to Our Vic a serious racehorse won nearly 800k over jumps in UK and beat Kauto Star once at levels and gave a future GN winner a stone and a beating.He could be decent .

[Red Rum 1,833]

3 hours ago, Pam Robson said:

The only two at Riccarton who consistently had a jumper or two - K Hughes and N. Ridley - had to rely on staff [ showjumping girls ]  to get them going for a start,  and a reluctant Lee Callaway to qualify.

Lee does actually have one,  but couldn't get a rider for Dunedin, so not much encouragement for him ; and as he is suspended, couldn't ride it himself .....think he's pleased about that..!

Danny Crozier and Ross Beckett will campaign outside jumpers,  but have none of their own and the same re. riders applies to them.

That is the situation.  It's hardly surprising there is little interest locally.

A few years ago Andre Klein facilitated U.K jump riders to come out for their off season,  and work for southern trainers.   Locally we had Charlie Wallis and Andrew Glassonbury.   Andrew was magic over a fence,  and things were looking up for a while .   Charlie actually boarded at mine for a while,  lovely young fella,  but - as he said - I realise we are ' on holiday '  but I didn't come all this way to ride somebody's breakers for $400.00 a week...and as well there was no 'guarantee' of rides in their contracts [ if they had one ].    I used to get so angry that these boys were not given more opportunity.  Therein lies the problem,  the wages structure and working conditions in England for the likes of these young men working in good yards makes it just not worth while to come here,  and the attitude of some local trainers as well meant they weren't keen to come back.

I can't obviously comment about current N.I based UK and Irish riders and their employment arrangements.

Good to read Eric the Bee had good retirement . Jump racing year round nowdays in UK and those jocks battling away over there cannot stop or they get replaced real quick by next jock .The point to point amateurs are plenty there , they stop from end May to early November as the start has been brought forward from January .Those top point to point jocks are really amateur professionals , so many meetings each weekend and very competitive they will be doing OK money wise I would have thought . The money paid for winning Irish pointers at times huge , Lloyd Williams has got one that looks real good for 400k , Dlauro is the name .Year plus off and hosed up in bumper last month in rules debut .

Hopefully August goes good at Riccarton . 

I notice every horse in Victoria jumps races get vet checked before and after in stipes reports , is that done here.

 

 

[Pam Robson 1,547]

Nope.