Red Rum

Thatz David

76 posts in this topic

On 6/15/2019 at 8:47 AM, Rusty said:

We have a choice as to whether we drive cars. 

Do horses have a choice as to whether they go over the jumps at 13 years of age? 

Well he isn't 13 but I seem to recall Chautaqua had a choice ( or at least decided he'd had enough). Tongue in cheek of course.

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In 2013 Victory Gunner won a 3 mile Chase at Chepstow aged 15 , two years later he was retired as soon as he became uncompetitive  and died aged 20  after a few years relaxing ,  Megalala won on flat in 2016 at Lingfield aged 15 and was retired healthy the next year staying in yard to live out his days . Can anyone honestly say Thatz David is still competive, he needs the kitchen sink thrown at him from the mile pole nowdays . 

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It is up to Anne Davies to decide when it is time to retire Thatz David. She might take heart that a horse called Banjo ran fourth in the 1880 Grand National Steeplechase at Riccarton. Poor old Banjo was 26 years of age!

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26 minutes ago, gubellini said:

It is up to Anne Davies to decide when it is time to retire Thatz David. She might take heart that a horse called Banjo ran fourth in the 1880 Grand National Steeplechase at Riccarton. Poor old Banjo was 26 years of age!

Yes it is, however if the horse is consistently uncompetitive like he is then it’s NZTR’s role to issue a warning and then enforce if no improvement. Unsuspecting people are investing in a no hope option, you could say serves them right, but the reflection on racing is not good if allowed to continue

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Not saying whether there should be a retirement age or not.

The fact is he is probably one of fittest and healthiest 13yo horses in the country.

There are many older hunting and endurance horses doing a lot more exorcise time wise.

A racehorse races for 1-3min max and are looked after with kid gloves.

If he was racing against other 13yo and winning easily would you feel the same....from a horse welfare POV only.

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On the other code, a horse called Kelly Evander raced from 2003 to 2011, for two 3rds and 3 fourths, went around for a long time and hardly ever raced competitively always a long way back, can't compare the two,but I don't think an astute punter would have lost to much on Kelly, I think she got stood down a few times in her career, but kept on coming back.A far cry from the David's  294k in stakes.

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27 minutes ago, Shad said:

On the other code, a horse called Kelly Evander raced from 2003 to 2011, for two 3rds and 3 fourths, went around for a long time and hardly ever raced competitively always a long way back, can't compare the two,but I don't think an astute punter would have lost to much on Kelly, I think she got stood down a few times in her career, but kept on coming back.A far cry from the David's  294k in stakes.

294k earnt , loads good days out for connections now needs a decent rev up a long way from home according to a stewards report suggests it's fallen a bit out of love for game , maybe I've gone soft but why would anyone want to keep running it round the back baffles me. What are they getting out of it , surely no one enjoys a good friend as surely he is that to them getting an arse whipping week in week out .They must have  cared for him very very well over the years to their absolute credit , why risk him now for no gain.

Normally the people who know they unlikely to get another good one just cannot let go. 

Anti Brigade love this sort of stuff, it's their lifeblood .

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4 hours ago, Shad said:

Wonder if he was half the age, would we be having this discussion.Would there be the same concern.

Wonder if he had won 20 lengths last seven races  with ears pricked would we have same concern, wonder if he  was a 2 year old first up if we had same concern, I wonder if me granny had bollocks would she be me grandad . 

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11 hours ago, Red Rum said:

294k earnt , loads good days out for connections now needs a decent rev up a long way from home according to a stewards report suggests it's fallen a bit out of love for game , maybe I've gone soft but why would anyone want to keep running it round the back baffles me. What are they getting out of it , surely no one enjoys a good friend as surely he is that to them getting an arse whipping week in week out .They must have  cared for him very very well over the years to their absolute credit , why risk him now for no gain.

Normally the people who know they unlikely to get another good one just cannot let go. 

Anti Brigade love this sort of stuff, it's their lifeblood .

Remember Anne saying he just loved being part of a stable environment and the regular routine, as many do. He has been a great money spinner for them and I'm sure she will know if he doesn't want to do it any more. 

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Why does Victoria have a rule where a horse must be retired from racing (gallops) as soon as it turns 13. And for a horse to run when it is 12, it needs clearance from the stewards? 

What would be the point of this rule? 

When the rule makers created this rule, and when it was implemented into the rules of racing, what would have been the intended purpose? 

I would suggest it was so they don't get the likes of "Thatz David" busting it's guts out and trying to offer some protection to horses that have greedy and/or unrealistic connections, that are blind to what the vast majority of people can see. 

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I don't know how many years/decades NZ racing is behind Australia. I know they are well behind. But hopefully one day soon they catch up and introduce a similar rule of mandatory retirement for older race horses. 

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Anne has been training winners for over 25 years. She has done well with horses that are not bred in the purple. Her first winner was Glow Bug at Waipukurau on the 29/11/92. Glow Bug was by the unheralded sire General Fripon. I respect her judgement and am sure she will retire Thatz David when she thinks his time has come.

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1 minute ago, gubellini said:

Anne has been training winners for over 25 years. She has done well with horses that are not bred in the purple. Her first winner was Glow Bug at Waipukurau on the 29/11/92. Glow Bug was by the unheralded sire General Fripon. I respect her judgement and am sure she will retire Thatz David when she thinks his time has come.

The point you are missing though Gub, is this isn't the local pony club derby whereby it just can run around for the hell of it. Its a business where unsupecting people are placing money on something that is no longer competitive & hasnt been for a fair while, its bloody obvious to all that the horse has had enough, its embarrassing to her as much as it is to NZTR to allow it to continue.

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50 minutes ago, gubellini said:

Anne has been training winners for over 25 years. She has done well with horses that are not bred in the purple. Her first winner was Glow Bug at Waipukurau on the 29/11/92. Glow Bug was by the unheralded sire General Fripon. I respect her judgement and am sure she will retire Thatz David when she thinks his time has 

Has stable got any other horses going round at moment to pick up the baton or is TD the only one racing ?

 

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15 hours ago, barryb said:

unsupecting people are placing money on something that is no longer competitive & hasnt been for a fair while, its bloody obvious to all that the horse has had enough

If it's 'obvious to all', then no one is unsuspecting. Anyone backing a horse with a row of duck eggs that's paying $30+ is probably backing it because of their Uncle David, or they have a thing for blue chevrons - ultimately, in calling for his retirement, we are making a call on the trainer's ability and/or love of her horses.

As a suggestion, would it work if, once past a certain age, the horse can only be hit a certain number of times (once or twice to get them going)?

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1 hour ago, Catalano said:

If it's 'obvious to all', then no one is unsuspecting. Anyone backing a horse with a row of duck eggs that's paying $30+ is probably backing it because of their Uncle David, or they have a thing for blue chevrons - ultimately, in calling for his retirement, we are making a call on the trainer's ability and/or love of her horses.

As a suggestion, would it work if, once past a certain age, the horse can only be hit a certain number of times (once or twice to get them going)?

That is good idea Cat, I suggest the certain age is two and I agree with the number of times

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The "animal welfare-lets ban racing brigade" do not need any more ammunition that what they currently have. 

This one and other no-hoper horses "running" around getting a hiding with whips and a severe beating by more competitive (better) horses is just adding more fuel to the fire for the lobbyists. 

I am still waiting for someone from the "leave poor Thatz David alone and gee isn't his trainer great" group to answer my two part question; 

Why does Victoria have a rule whereby horses that reach a certain age are retired and what is the point of this rule? 

They can't, or choose not to answer it.

Either because they don't want to face up to the facts, or they actually have no clue about anything. 

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4 hours ago, Rusty said:

Why does Victoria have a rule whereby horses that reach a certain age are retired and what is the point of this rule? 

Firstly, just because some bureaucrat decided to justify his existence by producing a rule, does not make that law correct or necessary.

I wonder, if a horse was approaching that age, and was on a winning streak, obviously enjoying his work - is that the end for him? Would you support that rule blindly?

Perhaps a more measured approach would be, once a horse gets to an advanced racing age, to have an 'average beaten lengths' moving average, and when the horse is uncompetitive over a period, the trainer must make a submission to the authority (which may be 'we're training for the Great Northern, get on board!')

 

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1 hour ago, Catalano said:

Firstly, just because some bureaucrat decided to justify his existence by producing a rule, does not make that law correct or necessary.

I wonder, if a horse was approaching that age, and was on a winning streak, obviously enjoying his work - is that the end for him? Would you support that rule blindly?

Perhaps a more measured approach would be, once a horse gets to an advanced racing age, to have an 'average beaten lengths' moving average, and when the horse is uncompetitive over a period, the trainer must make a submission to the authority (which may be 'we're training for the Great Northern, get on board!')

 

To be fair Aussie and HK have the rule so iam thinking they are on the money rather than us , NZTR only got horse ambulances a few months ago I understand .and they have been around years .We are behind the curve of public opinion . A 9 year old claimer broke down two weeks ago and was euthanased at Santa Anita , the anti racing crowd played up big  the fact he was old and run to death basically was the theme. News outlets ran with it ,  they are the masters of spin .They won't be interested how well the horse has been looked after if something happens . 

I think the rule is actually  Aussie wide as well by the way. 

What  average beaten lengths would you suggest and we can work out if TD would be outted.

It will all play out in next few months with this horse  anyway  .

I back it to stop midway up hill second circuit in Great Northen and say ' fxxked this for a game ' and walk back down.

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1 hour ago, Catalano said:

Firstly, just because some bureaucrat decided to justify his existence by producing a rule, does not make that law correct or necessary.

I wonder, if a horse was approaching that age, and was on a winning streak, obviously enjoying his work - is that the end for him? Would you support that rule blindly?

Perhaps a more measured approach would be, once a horse gets to an advanced racing age, to have an 'average beaten lengths' moving average, and when the horse is uncompetitive over a period, the trainer must make a submission to the authority (which may be 'we're training for the Great Northern, get on board!')

 

Also the average beaten lefts thing would encourage a beaten runner to maybe be given a tougher time than required to keep average down.

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