tim vince

It's finally

35 posts in this topic

Time to abandon the handicapping system.it could have been great but it is so far away from its original intention it should go.the inconsistencies are beyond a joke and the average horse quickly becomes  uncompetitive .it was supposed to promote like with like. No.it was supposed to help retain horses no.it seems to help the good horses while many turn up to get smashed.get rid of it.

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7 hours ago, tim vince said:

Time to abandon the handicapping system.it could have been great but it is so far away from its original intention it should go.the inconsistencies are beyond a joke and the average horse quickly becomes  uncompetitive .it was supposed to promote like with like. No.it was supposed to help retain horses no.it seems to help the good horses while many turn up to get smashed.get rid of it.

It seems to be working fine in the south island. 

All of what you state is occurring because of your lack of numbers in the north island. That should be where the focus is.. 

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A good handicapping system should be transparent to owners and trainers, and take account  of a horse's experience, current racing form and recent net earnings (minus any nomination fees).   Perhaps we should toss all 'fixed systems' aside and get the handicappers to programme conditioned races (e.g. 5yo+  earning less than $2500 in last 5 starts; trotters with less than 15 lifetime starts with hcp based on  tote race wins). This would require some innovative thinking in programming but one advantage of dropping horse numbers: we know the horses going round. 

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Get rid of "handicappers discretion" for a start, and also make the clubs stick with the programme trainers nominate for - and not after noms closing time add conditions (usually adverse) to bolster field size which usually helps one or two and disadvantages the rest.

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Part of conditions for this week's meeting at Auckland

 

Special Conditions

  • RATINGS PROGRAMME

    This programme is ratings based. It is a likely indication of the programme that will be in place for this meeting. Where it is required changes will be made to the final programme after the close of withdrawals. Please Note: Ratings bands and other conditions shown only serve as an indication as to how races will likely be programmed. As nominations permit race conditions will be programmed to ensure horses can race in a competitive environment whilst also optimising field sizes and where possible ensuring as many horses as possible gain a start

 

It just seems to be a case of "you provide the horses and we will tell you in which field you can race."      Really makes it hard for trainers to "plan ahead"

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33 minutes ago, eljay said:

Part of conditions for this week's meeting at Auckland

 

Special Conditions

  • RATINGS PROGRAMME

    This programme is ratings based. It is a likely indication of the programme that will be in place for this meeting. Where it is required changes will be made to the final programme after the close of withdrawals. Please Note: Ratings bands and other conditions shown only serve as an indication as to how races will likely be programmed. As nominations permit race conditions will be programmed to ensure horses can race in a competitive environment whilst also optimising field sizes and where possible ensuring as many horses as possible gain a start

 

It just seems to be a case of "you provide the horses and we will tell you in which field you can race."      Really makes it hard for trainers to "plan ahead"

Obviously its that way because they don't have enough horses. When will the same effort put into coming up with changes to the handicapping system, be put into addressing the real problem in the north island. by those from that region.

Is it because they would have to admit that previous thinking was flawed ,and  no one seems willing to do that.

The longer the focus on the handicapping system,the bigger the hole becomes,until you can't dig yourselves out of it.   In all reality you are almost there.

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Plenty of trotters.when u have a 15 point rating spread in one race and all off front then the same sort of rating span  on the same night and they race off handicaps it seems wrong.that has nothing to do with numbers.howevdr the s island is better.

 

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4 hours ago, tim vince said:

Plenty of trotters.when u have a 15 point rating spread in one race and all off front then the same sort of rating span  on the same night and they race off handicaps it seems wrong.that has nothing to do with numbers.howevdr the s island is better.

 

Does that mean you don't have any major issues with the points system?

But you  are unhappy with those who compile the fields,and those who decide what marks horses should start off?  In a way over riding the points handicapping system leading to inconsistencies which could be interpreted as preferential treatment?

I can see where you are coming from if that is what you mean.

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Too rigid adherence to rating points has its problems. Even with the handicapper taking off additonal discretionary points when our honest cup class trotter ended midfield, his impossible hcp meant the best he managed in over a year of racing was one 3rd and in the end we pulled the plug. He still was sound and running his last mile faster than his competitors but he'd still be off the back mark if still here. At the opposite end of scale of ability, we also got rid of a 3yo trotting filly which did the worst ever thing by winning her 1st real race in Taranaki after a breeder crown non tote win. The combination of her immaturity, inexperience and resultant rating meant she was totally out of her depth up against the hardened old trotters in the 60+ rating band. As city-living owners of 10+ horses from broodmares to weanlings, we pay for everything and while racing our horses is our hobby, there are economic realities. Needless to say, we are definately not fans of the ratings system.

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It is a crime sound horses with ability get retired for no other reason they are uncompetitive for a long period of time that it makes them uneconomical to race on.then u c 4 horse races for 25k 2 suit some trainers.all every owner ,trainer wants is to line their horse thinking if all goes good I've got a chance.instead I'm taking some horses knowing they have nil hope.

 

 

 

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Nelli

Your 3 year old  filly winning her first race at  taranaki  should not have had to race hardened rating 60t trotters . If that happened today it would be a rating 55 after its first win and would lose points with each unplaced start thereafter. There should be enough horses round the rating 55 grade or just below.. If there isn't in your region, well that is a lack of numbers problem.

You say the worst thing was for your 3y o to win its first start,because it was initially uncompetitive in the next grade. No,the worst thing would have been for your trainer/driver to have deliberately not tried to win,as that would undermine integrity in the sport. Winning first up anywhere is quite an achievement.

As to your older horse who was once in the very top grade. I have noticed it is unfair on horses in this grade who continually run well.but in all reality  are at a stage in their careers where they are not quite competitive against the very best. It's also  unrealistic for these type of horses to race  from big handicaps in lower grade races,

Anyway I really  think the clubs want them in the higher grade races to make up the numbers in already small fields. Why else would they treat them as they do. Its a policy that ultimately leads to the early retirement of some very good horses who could still race on for 3 or 4 years.

More conditioned races need to be programmed for these horses where they are competitive. Their plight is much worse than your 3 y old totter in my opinion. They are a resource which is under appreciated,even neglected.

1 hour ago, tim vince said:

It is a crime sound horses with ability get retired for no other reason they are uncompetitive for a long period of time that it makes them uneconomical to race on.then u c 4 horse races for 25k 2 suit some trainers.all every owner ,trainer wants is to line their horse thinking if all goes good I've got a chance.instead I'm taking some horses knowing they have nil hope.

 

 

 

 

I agree,as do I think 95 % of those involved . Doesn't there have to be a whole new mindset from those up your way?.  The most obvious example is the ATC doesn't even run races for amateurs.  Why,it just doesn't make any sense not to use them when they lack numbers..  They would rather no one turn up to the races.   Addington appreciates them,,and look at the horse numbers in Canterbury.

It must be getting close to the point where the problem in the north island is irreversible,too many participants have already given up.

Is  one of the major problems for want to be participants is there is no where to train from even if you wanted too,or  are their still facilities reasonably priced available?

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I guess we will know a lot more in the next week.

Certainly needs to be dramatic changes in thinking.

Between Auckland and Waikato there are still enough horses for a program with decent sized fields but last week there were 2 x meetings in 2 x days plus 40 plus horses at trials and workouts plus the over 20 horses returning from Jewels some of whom will keep racing.

It needs to be planned better plus ATC will need to swallow pride and realise the quality has largely gone

No Doctor Needed no longer apt.....time for an About Turn ,a Changeover or MT Pockets will be On The Cards. Such Fun again !

 

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See next season there are 5 back to back Waikato/Auckland meetings and a further  3 just 2 days apart (Wed/Fri or Fr/Sun).  Let's hope on those occasions the clubs and programmers collaborate. When our industry is on the ropes, the last thing we need is clubs competing for the same horses.

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See next season there are 5 back to back Waikato/Auckland meetings and a further  3 just 2 days apart (Wed/Fri or Fr/Sun).  Let's hope on those occasions the clubs and programmers collaborate. When our industry is on the ropes, the last thing we need is clubs competing for the same horses.

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What a Post. Our 3yo filly got an R59 rating. It was right at the beginning of the rating system and the Breeders Crown nontote wins were given full points. She was too immature to race every week and after a few starts, it was obvious we'd break her heart to keep going for the months necessary to get down to a competitive rating. We could have turned her out and bought her back a year or two later but had other more promising young ones. Thankfully the system is not so tough now around nontote wins but it was a real downer at the time.

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Real problem is thha5 they are forever tampering with the conditions.which proves of course at the start wrong people .6 months later still wrong people.fast forward to noe.stll wrong people.back to the future kids.

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What happens if if if Greenfields ever gets going as a tri code venue in the Waikato.

A Park becomes redundant just like Hutt Park.

Very little harness or greyhounds now unless we trek to Manawatu.

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1 hour ago, tim vince said:

Real problem is thha5 they are forever tampering with the conditions.which proves of course at the start wrong people .6 months later still wrong people.fast forward to noe.stll wrong people.back to the future kids.

Another take would be to say despite trying alternatives, no matter what the rating system,n o rating system will work because you don't have the numbers.  I believe your looking at the symptoms ,not the cause.

 

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Agree with What a Post.The reality is there are just not enough horses in the north.The clubs are trying to match like for like but you can't have 20 races with 5 horse in each.Would these owners who say their horse is no longer competitive be willing to race in a claimer where they are competitive but with the chance someone else will buy it?Nellie-you had a young horse who went up the grades early and a older horse who had won a lot of races and was coming down the grades-surely at some stage one or the other would have been competitive or were the costs too high to get to this stage.

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Of course it happens but surely a number of horses should not be solely running around week after week to lose points so they then have a chance to place.

Asking participants what they want would be a good starting point  , can't please everyone but may be some common ground there.

Anyway the special ATC AGM is being held next week and they are holding 2 x workshops for members prior.

The first is at 6.30pm tonight.

Second  at 4.30pm Friday.

If anyone can't make these bit has some crucial/sensible questions they want answered or some game changing ideas then state on here NOW and I will endeavour to make the effort to ask them,

Before 5.15pm please as I will have to fight the traffic to make it !.....its a little further than a 9 iron !

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