Berri

check this out

9 posts in this topic

So check out the pedigrees on these horses. It's swamped with Northern Dancer blood which is known for laryngeal Hemiplegia. It's changing the shape of the breed. Where do we go for the next generation? Coolmore have worked out that Galileo needs to be mixed with speed. The best speed in more Northern Dancer/ Danzig blood. But check this out...Northern Dancer the top line, Eceed and Excel is by Danehill (northern Dancer) out of a Lomond mare (Northern Dancer) and third dam by Strom Cat (Northern Dancer).

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But this is interesting because Frankel's are more stayers than sprinters where he had enough speed to last for ever. Both Anapurna and Enable are Sadlers Wells out of Sadlers Wells line mares

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That is utterly remarkable. In fact it’s astounding .This is like a grandparents grandchildren all marrying each other. Reminds me of certain prominent human families 

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Hello Mr Berri.

I enjoy your posts and I finally have worked out how to log in (only taken me 5 years!!) .I love my horses ,racing and breeding but know little.

Watching the run of ND and his descendants and knowing full well that all thoroughbreds descend from 4 stallions and maybe 200 mares and its been a totally 100% closed book for oo's of years genetically ALL thoroughbreds now must be just like brothers and sisters? Why don't the studs and the rich folk owners just breed a Champion stallion to his full sisters/daughters and get on with winning everything like Godolphin and Coolmore are well on the way to doing now ? I am serious in that mating full thoroughbred brother and sister  must be little different to the breeding you outline in this thread.

 

Edited by Beekeeper

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Perception and reality can be very different and best to analyse a large data set than base a conclusion on a winners of  a few big races!

Recent US story on outcrossing-

If the definition of an inbred horse is one that has at least one duplicated ancestor between the parents within four generations, then an outcrossed one has no closely duplicated ancestors at all. The majority of the breed is outcrossed, which should relieve the fear that the Thoroughbred is overrun with irresponsible and debilitating inbreeding. It is not.

The limited study in last month’s review of inbreeding used winners of the Triple Crown races and 3-year-old male division champions since 2000. Of that very small group of 39 individuals, 15 were inbred (38.5%) and 24 were outcrossed (61.5%).

Among the great sires in Kentucky, outcrosses also dominate. In 2014, 16 stallions stood for a fee of $50,000 or more—our proven, elite sires. Of those, 13, or 81.3%, were the result of outcross matings, a serious majority. Studies suggest this is a rough reflection of the population, in that anywhere from 60% to 75% of modern Thoroughbreds, are outcrossed. Is this simply a matter of random population genetics, or is there an advantage to outcrossing?

In a mating each parent contributes half of the genetic code, with a wide range of results. In some cases both parents pass on similar genetics, creating a horse that is pure dominant or pure recessive for those traits. This is what’s supposed to happen in an inbreeding program, striving to intensify the genetics so they will be passed on with great predictability.

In other cases genes from one parent will outrightly dominate the other parent’s. This is what has happened when we say a horse is prepotent or “stamps his get.”

In a third scenario the parents’ genetics will blend to create something in between. This is what most breeders hope will happen, but rarely does, getting the perfect balance. Depending on the differences between the parents, it can be a real crap shoot.

In a fourth scenario there is so much favorable genetic diversity coming from either side that the offspring is superior than both parents. This is heterosis, or hybrid vigor, resulting from a high number of heterozygous gene pairings instead of the homozygous pairings often found in inbred stock. It is the Holy Grail of horse breeding because, although racing ability is highly heritable, actual genetic improvement is hard to achieve. Consider that even the greatest stallions sire only 5% to 15% stakes winners and few throw a runner better than themselves.

This is also the possibility that comes from outcrossing. Inbreeding concentrates an ancestor’s genes, but every generation forward, that influence is diminished by roughly half. Inbreeding 4x4 to Northern Dancer is only maintaining the influence he had in the third generation of each parent. Unless the inbreeding is very close, say 2x2 or 3x3, it isn’t really effective in intensifying that great ancestor’s influence. The 4x4 standard many of us use to define it is probably not very significant in actual practice, and 3x3 might be a better the standard.

Now, take an inbred horse, and cross it with an unrelated one, and the possibility of creating that super-vigorous mix of genes increases dramatically. Inbreeding can create better breeding stock, which is ideal for this very purpose, but outcrossing is more effective in creating a better athlete. Alternating these strategies every generation or two is a highly desirable formula.

Look at the pedigrees of some of the greatest racehorses of modern times:Secretariat, Nijinsky II, Seattle Slew, Spectacular Bid, Affirmed,Cigar,Curlin,Zenyatta, Brigadier Gerard, Frankel, and Sea The Star, for instance. The majority of these are outcrosses. Of this small group, only Seattle Slew (4x4 Nasrullah), Spectacular Bid (3x3 To Market), and Frankel (3x4 Northern Dancer) are inbred using the 4x4 definition.

This tendency for great runners to be outcrossed might also explain why many of these superstars are tagged as disappointments as stallions or broodmares. Everyone hopes they will breed true, but their extreme genetic engineering makes it hard for them to pass on their qualities with consistency. Few of them take a leading sire title, like Seattle Slew, who was actually one of the rare ones inbred by the 4x4 definition, although many of them still make a serious mark.

If you need convincing, consider a breeder whose program focuses on favorable outcrossing. Adena Springs, or the farm’s owner Frank Stronach, has won the Eclipse Award for leading breeder eight times.

 

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Many thanks N.

But I gather all racing folk  acknowledge that 4 stallions and maybe less than 200 mares began the “breed” and very quickly 200 years ago the genetic book was slammed shut . Men have been cross breeding ??? from the offspring of the original 4 stallions ever since so to me they are all as good as near full brothers and sisters ! All else is rich men’s dreams and ND and Berri’s post absolutely proves it ? I can see absolutely no reason  why a stallion cannot be mated to his sisters and leave winners. Berri’s post above strongly points to it and Coolmore knows it as their staggering successful results prove. If you got the dough just discard the 20% roarers as the winners will get you glory and more $ 

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2 minutes ago, Beekeeper said:

Many thanks N.

But I gather all racing folk  acknowledge that 4 stallions and maybe less than 200 mares began the “breed” and very quickly 200 years ago the genetic book was slammed shut . Men have been cross breeding ??? from the offspring of the original 4 stallions ever since so to me they are all as good as near full brothers and sisters ! All else is rich men’s dreams and ND and Berri’s post absolutely proves it ? I can see absolutely no reason  why a stallion cannot be mated to his sisters and leave winners. Berri’s post above strongly points to it and Coolmore knows it as their staggering successful results prove. If you got the dough just discard the 20% roarers as the winners will get you glory and more $ 

Thanks. Couple of comments. How the thoroughbred started off 350 years ago and what is has now evolved into I suspect is quite different.

I think Berri is pointing out that Galileo works well with fast Danzig blood rather saying inbreeding is the answer. Sadlers Wells and Danzig while both being sons of Danehill were very different in type.

Further you might want to look at the Truenicks site.

Eg- Galileo with Danehill mares is A+ meaning much higher percentage of SW than the sireline ( Galileo ) with other mares ( non Danehill), and higher than the broodmare sireline ( Danehill )  with other sirelines (non Galileo sires).

 As a comparison Galileo and his sons mated with mares by Sadlers Wells and his sons and grandsons is Rated an F.

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