Baz (NZ)

(The) Bostonian (NZ)

129 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, Trump said:

If he wins the Stradbroke and is not NZ’s HOTY, then we will have confirmation that either the Voters know nothing about racing, or, the Voting system needs to be changed in favour of a points system weighted in favour of G1 wins in Aust/Hk, or, it’s rigged. What a great performance by a very good horse and 10/1 to boot!!

 Why should Aus races automatically be rated higher? Yesterdays wasn't a great field, you had a bolter run second, a 2yo 5th and even Endless Drama was close up.

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6 hours ago, mckenzie said:

 Why should Aus races automatically be rated higher? Yesterdays wasn't a great field, you had a bolter run second, a 2yo 5th and even Endless Drama was close up.

I’m not sure that I should answer your question Macca. But surely you’re not suggesting that a G1 at Otaki rates equal with the Doomben 10,000? You need to take your NZ hat off and look at it neutrally. The 10000 win stamped TB’s class

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13 hours ago, mckenzie said:

 Why should Aus races automatically be rated higher? Yesterdays wasn't a great field, you had a bolter run second, a 2yo 5th and even Endless Drama was close up.

Encryption been running to high level this year  , Ringadingding pretty handy and the 2 year old received 11 kilos , all beaten off by TB . Not  great group 1 but few are great , to me great group 1 s are the obvious iconic races . Not unheard of 2 year olds winning or running well in late season group 1s in other countries in receipt of weight that in itself don't degrade the form imho

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Shamas Award won the Cox Plate as a maiden but did that reduce the class of the race? Of course not. The Bostonian only has to win the Stradbroke to wrap up the NZ HOTY imho. 

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2 hours ago, Trump said:

Shamas Award won the Cox Plate as a maiden but did that reduce the class of the race? Of course not. The Bostonian only has to win the Stradbroke to wrap up the NZ HOTY imho. 

I obviously view things differently to some people. The way I see it, Bostonian's form in Queensland is surely just franking Melody Belle's form in NZ. She beat The Bostonian every time they met  in NZ, except when they were both out of the money in the Telegraph, when the classy Southern horses cleaned up. So nobody could surely deny she had the edge over The Bostonian. What he achieves when she isn't about surely only emphasises how dominant she was?

The Bostonian won one race all season in NZ, a listed race, and got beaten in four group 1s, only placing once. Melody Belle won five group 1s and a group 2.  Is NZ Racing so bad that we just pretend those races didn't happen, just because The Bostonian wins some races in Queensland without Melody Belle about?

I have no particular interest in either of those two horses. I am just trying to introduce some logic to the conversation.

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28 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

I obviously view things differently to some people. The way I see it, Bostonian's form in Queensland is surely just franking Melody Belle's form in NZ. She beat The Bostonian every time they met  in NZ, except when they were both out of the money in the Telegraph, when the classy Southern horses cleaned up. So nobody could surely deny she had the edge over The Bostonian. What he achieves when she isn't about surely only emphasises how dominant she was?

The Bostonian won one race all season in NZ, a listed race, and got beaten in four group 1s, only placing once. Melody Belle won five group 1s and a group 2.  Is NZ Racing so bad that we just pretend those races didn't happen, just because The Bostonian wins some races in Queensland without Melody Belle about?

I have no particular interest in either of those two horses. I am just trying to introduce some logic to the conversation.

Some good points there and equally, because MB finished so far behind Enzo’s Lad in a G1 doesn’t take away the merit of her dominance in NZ. The point is, if TB wins the G1 Stradbroke to achieve something very rare ( winning the 10000/KS Cup/Strad treble, then he has to be the high achiever. Maybe equal HOTY with MB would satisfy most? 

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4 hours ago, Red Rum said:

Encryption been running to high level this year  , Ringadingding pretty handy and the 2 year old received 11 kilos , all beaten off by TB . Not  great group 1 but few are great , to me great group 1 s are the obvious iconic races . Not unheard of 2 year olds winning or running well in late season group 1s in other countries in receipt of weight that in itself don't degrade the form imho

There were some handy horses in that no doubt. But also MB has beaten good horses, she won the 2000m NZ Stakes beating Danzdanzdance and Rhondinella who both placed at G1 in Aus in good races.  

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7 minutes ago, mckenzie said:

There were some handy horses in that no doubt. But also MB has beaten good horses, she won the 2000m NZ Stakes beating Danzdanzdance and Rhondinella who both placed at G1 in Aus in good races.  

And in hindsight the Otaki WFA has turned out to be a good form race with the handy Aussie performer Wyndspelle 2nd,  the subsequent Moonee Valley winner Consensus 3rd, and further back the multiple Group 1 winner The Bostonian and the Easter winner Endless Drama, who was a close up 6th in the Group 1 on Saturday. Probably fair to say that field saved the Otaki race's Group 1 status for another year or two. 

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5 hours ago, mckenzie said:

There were some handy horses in that no doubt. But also MB has beaten good horses, she won the 2000m NZ Stakes beating Danzdanzdance and Rhondinella who both placed at G1 in Aus in good races.  

You make a very  fair point .As others not knocking MB , she's awesome but I put more weight on Aussie races to be honest bar 3 years old stayers as NZ horses prove more than competitive year after year in that division.  TB beating Aussies at own game .A game of differing opinions that's what makes it great .

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34 minutes ago, Baz (NZ) said:

Why don't we create an award for NZ International Horse Of The Year along side... NZ Horse Of The Year?

If you had it the International award this season based on a NZ bred horse, not necessarily NZ-trained one, then Beauty Generation would win it hands down, wouldn't he? Unless, you put Winx in the equation (NZ dam only)

Edited by Sobeit
Winx -after thought

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34 minutes ago, Baz (NZ) said:

Why don't we create an award for NZ International Horse Of The Year along side... NZ Horse Of The Year?

Best performance by a NZ trained horse outside of NZ. Good idea. Another category could be best performance overseas by a NZ breed horse, which would cover Beauty Generation.

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1 minute ago, Sobeit said:

If you had it the International award this season based on a NZ bred horse, not necessarily NZ-trained one, then Beauty Generation would win it hands down, wouldn't he? 

and another award.... NZ Bred Horse Of The Year ! :rcf-laughing-2:

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5 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

Best performance by a NZ trained horse outside of NZ. Good idea. Another category could be best performance overseas by a NZ breed horse, which would cover Beauty Generation.

I would hope that awards such as these were only given out when outstanding performances merited such an award.  I wouldn't like to see their merit watered down by the awards being annual, where mediocre performance may be rewarded just because the trophy has to be handed out.

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14 minutes ago, Sobeit said:

If you had it the International award this season based on a NZ bred horse, not necessarily NZ-trained one, then Beauty Generation would win it hands down, wouldn't he? Unless, you put Winx in the equation (NZ dam only)

Winx (Aus) bred

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3 minutes ago, Sobeit said:

I would hope that awards such as these were only given out when outstanding performances merited such an award.  I wouldn't like to see their merit watered down by the awards being annual, where mediocre performance may be rewarded just because the trophy has to be handed out.

Fair enough. Bit like a wine show. A trophy isn't given out for a particular varietal unless there is actually a gold medal wine.

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Yep, agreed.That's why I put (dam only)...she carries the NZ via her dam and is officially an Ozzie. Still feel we can rightly claim a wee bit of her pedigree, can't we? :-).

 

 

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Back to The Bostonian, this from punters.com.au

The Bostonian will aim to complete the sprint trebleImage: Michael McInally
The Bostonian is set to carry topweight of 57kg in Saturday week's Stradbroke Handicap (1400m) when the Tony Pike-trained galloper shoots for a clean sweep of the Brisbane Group One sprints. 

The four-year-old was a shock winner of the Doomben 10,000 at odds of $41 before winning Saturday's Kingsford-Smith Cup at $10. 

Osborne Bulls, who finished a fast-finishing second to The Bostonian in the Doomben 10,000, has been allocated topweight of 58kg in the Stradbroke, however the Godolphin gelding is already in the paddock. 

Leading Queensland hopeful Tyzone will carry just 53kg with Tommy Berry to partner the Toby Edmonds-trained five-year-old.  

Other notable potential Stradbroke runners are Trekking (54kg), Victorem (51.5kg), Despatch (54.5kg) and Outback Barbie (49.5kg).

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4 minutes ago, Sobeit said:

Back to The Bostonian, this from punters.com.au

The Bostonian will aim to complete the sprint trebleImage: Michael McInally
The Bostonian is set to carry topweight of 57kg in Saturday week's Stradbroke Handicap (1400m) when the Tony Pike-trained galloper shoots for a clean sweep of the Brisbane Group One sprints. 

The four-year-old was a shock winner of the Doomben 10,000 at odds of $41 before winning Saturday's Kingsford-Smith Cup at $10. 

Osborne Bulls, who finished a fast-finishing second to The Bostonian in the Doomben 10,000, has been allocated topweight of 58kg in the Stradbroke, however the Godolphin gelding is already in the paddock. 

Leading Queensland hopeful Tyzone will carry just 53kg with Tommy Berry to partner the Toby Edmonds-trained five-year-old.  

Other notable potential Stradbroke runners are Trekking (54kg), Victorem (51.5kg), Despatch (54.5kg) and Outback Barbie (49.5kg).

I reckon  Tom Melbourne red hot favorite to find one too good .

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TB is going to be giving a lot of weight to some very good horses. Tyzone, Trekking and Victorem are all big chances. Toby’s got Tyzone in great shape to shake the life out of the Straddie. But 10000 Form usually stacks up in the Straddie. So if TB doesn’t win ( I think he will win ) then the 2nd to 5th places in the 10k will probably contain the winner. JMHO

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If The Bostonian is to win the Stradbroke then he has to achieve the following: (1) Carry the heaviest winning weight in 27 years. (2) Become the first horse to win the Triple G1 Crown of the 10,000/Kingsford Smith/Stradbroke treble. If that’s not a NZ HOTY yardstick I don’t know what is. I hope he wins and he “will” look the winner at some stage. But will he be run over near the line by a lighter weighted rival? Don’t you love handicap G1 racing?!

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Let's look at how the two contenders for HOTY did (especially against each other) this season in Noo Zilllan'

  • Bostonian 1st in the Counties Bowl fresh up over 1100m on a Slow track in November. Beats subsequent Railway winner and runner-up Santa Monica (2nd), Princes Kereru (5th). Melody Belle not in the race.
  • Bostonian 7th in the Railway  -  Melody Belle 3rd, topweight, narrowly behind lightweights Santa Monica (1st) and Princess Kereru (2nd).
  • Bostonian 5th in 1:07:30 in a very fast Telegraph (Enzo's Lad 1:06:95), when Melody Belle inexplicably runs 16th.
  • Bostonian 2nd btn a head by Melody Belle (1st) and conceding 2kg to her, with Ardrossan 3rd in the BCD Gr 1 sprint over 1400m, WFA at Te Rapa. 
  • Bostonian 5th btn by Melody Belle (1st), Wyndspelle, Consensus and More Wonder in Gr 1 Haunui Farm Classic, 1600m WFA 

In summary, Melody Belle beat Bostonian three out of four times in NZ this season, over 1200m, 1400m and 1600m. She beat him right-handed and left-handed, conceding weight to him and getting weight from him.d is

The only time he beat her was in the Telegraph (he 5th; she 16th). 

How would Melody Belle go against him in Queensland ?? We'll never know, I guess, but chances are she's a tad better than him on any given day.

 

Good to read some interesting ideas re awards for NZ-trained and/or NZ-bred horses overseas. It's a lay-down misere for Beauty Generation in my opinion.

And NZ Race of the Year? The one that sticks in my mind most is Melody Belle's Gr 1 duel with Danzdanzdance at Ellerslie in March. The crowd roared (for a few seconds, anyway like it was 1986 again!

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