gazza123

box seat ,debate on blood spinning

236 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, Lee270744 said:

I'm sorry that you wont be happy with this answer but it not banned in Australia if it was the Labs  in Melbourne and Sydney would be closed.

I'm not sure how much oxygen is carried in Serum hopefully some of the scientists on here will know.

What a ridiculously propaganda loaded question - "Which countries have banned ACS?"

Clearly the answer is none, as the product has legitimate injury treatment uses.

Some more pertinent questions would be:

  • "Which countries have restricted the use of ACS for a period prior to racing?"
  • "Why is it a restricted pre-race treatment in these countries?"
  • "How long are these restrictions for?"
  • "Should we expect to see a new testimonial on the EBS website when the Manawatu season wraps up?"
  • "When will the Box Seat be airing their next advertorial, "ACS Part 3 - The Before & After Case Studies"

 

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5 hours ago, JackSprat said:

What a ridiculously propaganda loaded question - "Which countries have banned ACS?"

Clearly the answer is none, as the product has legitimate injury treatment uses.

Some more pertinent questions would be:

  • "Which countries have restricted the use of ACS for a period prior to racing?"
  • "Why is it a restricted pre-race treatment in these countries?"
  • "How long are these restrictions for?"
  • "Should we expect to see a new testimonial on the EBS website when the Manawatu season wraps up?"
  • "When will the Box Seat be airing their next advertorial, "ACS Part 3 - The Before & After Case Studies"

 

Jack , it is clear from your posts on this matter no one will have the answers you want or to your satisfaction . The solution to those questions above is for you to ring a vet of your choice to get the answers , better still ring Massey Vet school , i have found them very obliging in the past. Some how i think im going to get a blast from you but please dont bother as i am trying to help you out here

 

Greg

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We can all see why JACK SPRAT is petrified someone will expose him.

Probably the most CHILDISH post written.

Question 4 will show the HATRED Jack has for anyone successful. 

The ridiculously propaganda loaded question was for John Legend who said countries banned ACS.

C'mon Jack tell us who you are? and why do you hate harness racing with a passion?

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25 minutes ago, Lee270744 said:

We can all see why JACK SPRAT is petrified someone will expose him.

Probably the most CHILDISH post written.

Question 4 will show the HATRED Jack has for anyone successful. 

The ridiculously propaganda loaded question was for John Legend who said countries banned ACS.

C'mon Jack tell us who you are? and why do you hate harness racing with a passion?

So once again, rather than answer the questions you make a flimsy attempt at "shooting the messenger". The thing is, who I am is not nearly as interesting as the fact that you seem to be quite flustered by the fact that I may just know what I'm talking about.

We all know that your question was aimed at John, but I chose to step in and answer instead. (Apologies John if I've stolen your thunder!)

For the record, there's a world of difference between this "hatred" you speak of and a couple of tongue-in-cheek questions about a process that appears to skew the playing field.

Really looking forward to your answers to the rather simple questions above.

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2 hours ago, Lee270744 said:

We can all see why JACK SPRAT is petrified someone will expose him.

Probably the most CHILDISH post written.

Question 4 will show the HATRED Jack has for anyone successful. 

The ridiculously propaganda loaded question was for John Legend who said countries banned ACS.

C'mon Jack tell us who you are? and why do you hate harness racing with a passion?

Really your reply is rather disappointing. 

Personally I think using  the "hatred of anyone successful" comment is just a tactic to deflect from giving a reasonable answer.

Personally I didn't see anything wrong with how the box seat presented the segment. I think its about time they gave coverage to issues discussed by those who follow the sport.

I don't have a problem with the segment being presented in a favorable light for those who provide the service.  The fact that it has prompted debate from differing view points is also a positive for those interested in both sides. 

I think you should stick to promoting the positives in the service you provide instead of name calling.

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Actually JJ has some good advice for yuh Jack, why don't you contact someone who can answer your queries, to your satisfaction; because as far as I can see Lee has done his best with you, that said if you 'know' just what your talkin about then why are you askin Lee? methinks your still tryin to make summit outta nuthin......I mean, 'you too can use this product' so why don't you try it before you knock it? as the product is legal and not performance enhancing I can't for the life of me see what yuh problem really is with it? and or Lee? and I don't blame Lee one bit for askin who you really are cos it's startin look and sound alittle weird mate etc etc.....

 

Cheers Iraklis

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19 hours ago, JackSprat said:

What a ridiculously propaganda loaded question - "Which countries have banned ACS?"

Clearly the answer is none, as the product has legitimate injury treatment uses.

Some more pertinent questions would be:

  • "Which countries have restricted the use of ACS for a period prior to racing?"
  • "Why is it a restricted pre-race treatment in these countries?"
  • "How long are these restrictions for?"
  • "Should we expect to see a new testimonial on the EBS website when the Manawatu season wraps up?"
  • "When will the Box Seat be airing their next advertorial, "ACS Part 3 - The Before & After Case Studies"

 

1   NZ  (Define period)

2   Check with RIU

3   1 Clear day

4   Not one of the horses I have treated has raced at Manawatu Harness Meetings.

5   Have no idea

All my replies are disappointing to most people that hate successful trainers.

I reiterate that it is only the Serum extracted from the blood that is put back into the same horse it came from, hence it is impossible to be swabbed positive.

If you live in Christchurch or near you are more than welcome to visit the Lab in Yaldhurst we have nothing to hide from Jack Sprat or anyone else.

I'm good Tim might be better after the Jewels:rcfe-happy-2:

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4 hours ago, Lee270744 said:

1   NZ  (Define period)

2   Check with RIU

3   1 Clear day

4   Not one of the horses I have treated has raced at Manawatu Harness Meetings.

5   Have no idea

All my replies are disappointing to most people that hate successful trainers.

I reiterate that it is only the Serum extracted from the blood that is put back into the same horse it came from, hence it is impossible to be swabbed positive.

If you live in Christchurch or near you are more than welcome to visit the Lab in Yaldhurst we have nothing to hide from Jack Sprat or anyone else.

I'm good Tim might be better after the Jewels:rcfe-happy-2:

ACS is only restricted in NZ - Really? So there are no restrictions as to how and when the treatment can be used in Australia, USA, Europe or Scandinavia?

You may not have "personally treated" any Manawatu runners but you'd have to be happy with 8/14! It speaks volumes for ACS's "ability to skew the playing field"!

You seem to have a fixation on the words "hate" and "positive swabs". This thread is about questioning the use of the ACS treatment in general. To the best of my knowledge you are the only participant with a side interest in hatred and positive swabs.

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I suggest everyone give up taking Jack on , clearly a complete waste of time given his fixation bordering on obsession with the topic. No one will be able to answer his rhetorical questions so why bother especially you Lee as he has had you in his sites since day one of this thread.

He is not brave enough to say but its pretty clear he thinks there is something majorly wrong with the treatment

 

Greg

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Oh knock it off Jack! you're startin to allude to things (You may not have "personally treated" any Manawatu runners but you'd have to be happy with 8/14! It speaks volumes for ACS's "ability to skew the playing field"!) that with out any proof of, you need to keep to yourself! Lee answered your queries, which to me he didn't really need to as over previous posts sometime ago he has published answers to most; if you don't like his answers, seek answers elsewhere! you are the only one questioning treatments use, even after BoxSeat programme aired, I believe it wouldn't matter what is said as you are want to find fault no matter if no fault exists ie. worryin if there was nuthin to worry about syndrome......if you got proof of any kind of wrong doin, then publish it mate! cos you're startin to sound hateful! and fixated yourself, give over already.......

 

Cheers Iraklis

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I don't see anything wrong with Jack expressing  his opinion. He seems to think it can be used as a performance enhancer,and obviously many do otherwise why would one  vet have referred to trainers using the treatment pre race,and the other vet saying it can improve lung performance. Of course that was just one part of the stated uses and needed to be taken in context..

Anyway,the reason the box seat did the segment was so people could better understand its benefits.

Its not as if  the debate was going to end overnight after the show. 

I agree lee27074 has probably answered as much as he can,and he has said to visit the lab as he has nothing to hide.The problem with that statement is I don't think anyone thinks he is hiding anything,they just have different takes on his product.  

I haven't seen any hateful comments on this thread,so I don't think it fair to describe jacks or anyone else's comments as such. That's my take on views previously expressed.

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1 hour ago, Iraklis said:

Oh knock it off Jack! you're startin to allude to things (You may not have "personally treated" any Manawatu runners but you'd have to be happy with 8/14! It speaks volumes for ACS's "ability to skew the playing field"!) that with out any proof of, you need to keep to yourself! Lee answered your queries, which to me he didn't really need to as over previous posts sometime ago he has published answers to most; if you don't like his answers, seek answers elsewhere! you are the only one questioning treatments use, even after BoxSeat programme aired, I believe it wouldn't matter what is said as you are want to find fault no matter if no fault exists ie. worryin if there was nuthin to worry about syndrome......if you got proof of any kind of wrong doin, then publish it mate! cos you're startin to sound hateful! and fixated yourself, give over already.......

Cheers Iraklis

Iraklis, you're letting your freakish levels of exuberance cloud your comprehension.

The issue is with the the treatment itself - not anyone using it. There is no hate. There is no wrong doing. There is nothing being alluded to or alleged. The rules permit the treatment ... for now.

This treatment is a disaster for the industry. But who can blame the opportunists for jumping on it. What it's doing is driving the wedge between the elite stables and the average stables even wider, which will force more people from the game. Effectively what it's doing is saying to the already struggling owners and trainers that "you need to folk out another grand for this or fall even further off the pace".

The question marks over ACS use are obvious to any fair minded person who steps back and takes an unbiased look at the "before and after treatment" performances.

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WhataP, it is in Jacks own mind alone the performance enhancin, and if you refer back to what the vet (Lindsay) actually said 'she doesn't see any benefits in using treatment as a pre race treatment, it's more post race' remember, the performance enhancing part of the blood is poured down the drain, and to lung performance the reference was to bleeders on both occassions......and if as you say in Jacks defence there's no hateful comments etc then what would you call continued ref to this products performance enhancing capabilities and its use in the manner he has? even after he had his questions answered....

Jack, your continued reference to its use and the products ability 'to skew the playin field' something you have alluded to from the beginning, when clearly 2 vets have attested to otherwise tells me and others that your the one with the clouded comprehension, and it's gettin bloody silly! Lee answered your questions above, right! but still you comeback with the pithy 'You may not have "personally treated" any Manawatu runners but you'd have to be happy with 8/14! It speaks volumes for ACS's "ability to skew the playing field"! if that aint an allusion to the product being used to somehow performance enhance then I'll eat my hat.....but in your statement 'This treatment is a disaster for the industry. But who can blame the opportunists for jumping on it. What it's doing is driving the wedge between the elite stables and the average stables even wider, which will force more people from the game. Effectively what it's doing is saying to the already struggling owners and trainers that "you need to folk out another grand for this or fall even further off the pace". there in, we now can see the crux of your argument, whats really behind your gripin and snipin...:rcf-thinking-1:

Once again I say it is NOT just a treatment for the elite alone! clearly you did not hear that part of the programme! (it was stated twice once by MickG and OConnor) it is for everyone and anyone out there in the performance horse industry! you're jumpin at shadows cos you can't afford it, and or your just jealous of those who can, gimme a break!....your not even thinkin of the benefits of a natural product produced by the horse itself, who's feelin it's joints etc or strugglin with bleedin etc.....don't knock it til you've tried it mate

 

Cheers Iraklis

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Jack makes some very good points.If it is only for treating injuries,then why spray it into the lungs?It use can't be detected because its part of the horses own blood but then again so are the red blood cells and it was laughable on the video to see them tipping these down the sink.

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So Mick are you sayin that using it to spray into lungs to help with the healin bleedin issue's is somehow usin the horses own serum to get away with somethin? what exactly? as any kind of performance enhancin additives would be picked up!......that aside, the pourin of the red blood cells down the sink on The Boxseat, a programme aired on Trackside TV; with two vets and all of the professionals involved in the makin of the article for all to see, was somehow laughable because? I mean, do you really think all involved in the makin of the article, would throw their reputations on the line that way for the sake of, ahh, what exactly? the programme was watched by a shitload of people all over, not just here in NZ; seriously......what I am sayin is, if anyone out there has concrete proof of the misuse of this treatment then lets see it! Jack has made allusions to it in several posts not only recently but sometime ago when this subject was brought up.....soooo lets see it! surmisin and or assumin somethin is happenin as opposed to actually seein it or havin proof of it, doesn't make it true my friend, and just because someone can't get, or use the treatment doesn't mean it's somehow bogus and or wrongful to use, and if they do they're some how gainin a performance advantage (only advantage I can see is faster healing of a horse so it can get back to doin what it does best), and the treatment is about to cause all this harm to the industry.......

 

Cheers Iraklis

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I'm sayin the video looked very amateurish.Havin a mask half on face and not coverin nose and it does not look very good just tippin whats left down the sink.Is that the hi tech lab or just some back room off some building.Anyohe could get hold of a centrifuge and ultra violet light and a few test tubes and beakers.Do you have to be registered to do this or can anyone do it becuase the results are un-detectable.

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Iraklis-you say perfomance enhancing additives would be picked up.How do you know the serum itself isn't performance enhancing? Also if you used the red blood cells would this be picked up in a swab.

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Iraklis, let me say I admire your enthusiasm for the game and seeing the good side of everything and everyone, but in the real world there is a flipside to everything.!

The pouring of the red blood cells down the drain was nothing more a lovely little bit of theatrics for the benefit of the uninitiated! The red blood cells are of no relevance, and never were. The pain killing anti-inflammatory effects are concentrated in the serum. And it's the time frame surrounding the use of that serum which is the real issue.

The ACS providers (and users) would rather you focused on what it ISN'T (red blood cell manipulation), instead of what it actually IS - ie. a pain killing anti-inflammatory!

As the vets on the show said, it is "comparable to other pain killing anti-inflammatory" treatments they use. All of which are banned close to race day.

Whilst ACS has genuine uses in the field of shortening injury recovery time for soft tissue and joint injuries, it also has the side benefits of all the other banned pain killing anti-inflammatory treatments of increasing pain threshold, delaying fatigue, and masking bleeding which if I'm not mistaken are the hallmarks of performance enhancement!

You need to ask yourself why some horses get tired at the end of races, and others appearing to have endless stamina, particularly in races that matter.

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Prob coz they better nothing changed in 200 years.its called more ability.why did Richie mcaw have endless stamina . I did an iron man trained as hard as the winner and finished 3 hours behind.i could practice golf as hard a tiger and have the same teacher and be 20 behind him.same as horses ain't it or u having a crack at all stars again.the last sentence seems a veiled crack at them.im boi g to get some and if my shitter turns into Lazarus I will concede defeat.ill tell u the horse I use it on.i do think it wouldn't hurt to be notifiable.

 

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So I take it that all the people that are pro it will have no problem if hrnz makes it compulsory for the lab to notify every horse that they spin blood from. Let the punter know what horses are using this treatment. 

Will this tell a story.

Who knows but if there is nothing to hide then why not tell everyone which horses are receiving the treatment. It's pretty simple isn't it?

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You are correct DKC advise all punters which horses have been treated also advise the feed they have consumed 7 days before they race, times they worked , shoeing and teeth treatment and condition of the track they work on and if the owner is willing to punt on it and how much was his or her investment should be all divulged leave nothing to the imagination lets not have a skewed playing field.

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10 hours ago, Lee270744 said:

You are correct DKC advise all punters which horses have been treated also advise the feed they have consumed 7 days before they race, times they worked , shoeing and teeth treatment and condition of the track they work on and if the owner is willing to punt on it and how much was his or her investment should be all divulged leave nothing to the imagination lets not have a skewed playing field.

I'd also like to know the horses level of fitness ,in % terms in the trainers opinion ,based on all the above facts going into a race and whether or not the race is a horse's grand final or part of a fitness build up etc etc.

A lot of stuff to get out there...will keep a lot of people very busy.

Even then ,there will be the unexpected....heard it on Friday night......horse just didn't feel right ,blew up bad after the race ,high temperature , high heart rate , horse got squeezed up ,got spooked , got pushed down on to fence ,pulled hard , got a virus , driver went too soon , driver too passive , gear problem.

Ive heard and seen it all before.

Like all aspects of life , sport and business there are the good and not so good ,the fast and the slow.

One thing I do believe is ,there has never been so much information available as there is today and the racing game has never been 'cleaner' and under closer scrutiny.

It surprises me that industry participants who have close involvement see it their duty to spread gossip and innuendo and publicly slam the industry they claim to 'love'.

As soon as anyone has success the 'knives' come out.....small time syndicate participants like myself suddenly know it all and feel qualified to publicly slam promising young drivers etc.

Some say there is no 'hatred' but when I continually read 'cheats' ,rich pricks . the rich and famous etc ....I grimace.

Reading about the successful stables ,I deduct that planning is a key. I would be interested to know how many trainers have a strategic and business plan etc.

Reading about the successes of trainers like MHouse and the planning there , I say good luck to him and well done.

 

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19 hours ago, tim vince said:

Prob coz they better nothing changed in 200 years.its called more ability.why did Richie mcaw have endless stamina . I did an iron man trained as hard as the winner and finished 3 hours behind.i could practice golf as hard a tiger and have the same teacher and be 20 behind him.same as horses ain't it or u having a crack at all stars again.the last sentence seems a veiled crack at them.im boi g to get some and if my shitter turns into Lazarus I will concede defeat.ill tell u the horse I use it on.i do think it wouldn't hurt to be notifiable.

 

The point is the  all stars horses  are so dominant, especially when race or nz records are run,  that people, myself included,form the opinion there is more to the big gap between them and others,than  just their undoubted training and driving ability,and the  undoubted ability of their horses. Many believe,(i actually think most) that they have some type of performance enhancer which plays its part in the dominance.

To dismiss those with that opinion as jealous,haters,etc,etc is simply an easy way of ignoring why they think like that. Why can't someone have that opinion? Why do they have to be given nasty labels to undermine their thinking. 

As far as this blood spinning goes, ,if it was a key part of the formula to the all star success, I can't work out why those who offer the service would be so open about the product and service they offer to everyone.

I get the debate about the blood spinning and the benefits of it,i just cant work out why it is tied into being part of the formula of the all stars success which only the all stars have..Anyone can access it if they have the money to pay for it.

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