gazza123

box seat ,debate on blood spinning

152 posts in this topic

Jack mate, thats the point you're missing, the treatment isn't used to hide or mask anything, its used to help heal affected part quicker, by using the horses own enzymes, in it's own blood (in concentrated form nothing artificial about it) to treat the affected area; why you would feel that the animal rights/welfare people would have a field day with that, is beyond me...methinks you are lookin for something sinister that aint there, as alot are :rcf-thinking-1: actually the treatment to my mind is much like that gadget 'the Pain Erasor' its stimulates the bodies own responses to healing itself, this treatment is doin that for the performance horse......

 

Cheers Iraklis

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Nothing being missed here Iraklis I can assure you! Been in the game too long to be taken in by the thin veneer of bullshit and self interest that the "average punter" is sold on.

Nobody is denying that this product has significant healing properties. but as with every other equine treatment from arsenic through to zinc, it can be used for legitimate health reasons, or for reasons less altruistic.

Ask yourself a couple of simple question - "What healing is a fit and healthy racehorse in need of immediately before to a major race?" and if it does need healing "Why is it racing?"

The product has legitimate out-of-competition uses ie. to speed up recovery from injury.

The product has no legitimate racing use other than to reduce pain and inflammation and make horses run through the pain barrier ie. artificially increase stamina.

The long term price the industry will pay for this treatment is increased injury rates, and give the animal welfare groups further ammunition.

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2 hours ago, JackSprat said:

Nothing being missed here Iraklis I can assure you! Been in the game too long to be taken in by the thin veneer of bullshit and self interest that the "average punter" is sold on.

Nobody is denying that this product has significant healing properties. but as with every other equine treatment from arsenic through to zinc, it can be used for legitimate health reasons, or for reasons less altruistic.

Ask yourself a couple of simple question - "What healing is a fit and healthy racehorse in need of immediately before to a major race?" and if it does need healing "Why is it racing?"

The product has legitimate out-of-competition uses ie. to speed up recovery from injury.

The product has no legitimate racing use other than to reduce pain and inflammation and make horses run through the pain barrier ie. artificially increase stamina.

The long term price the industry will pay for this treatment is increased injury rates, and give the animal welfare groups further ammunition.

You make a lot of assumptions.Tell us all which trainer/s  have done what you are suggesting in bold above.?? Im thinking you cant/wont produce names but would be privileged if you did.

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31 minutes ago, Newmarket RC said:

You make a lot of assumptions.Tell us all which trainer/s  have done what you are suggesting in bold above.?? Im thinking you cant/wont produce names but would be privileged if you did.

I'm questioning the product/treatment in general, and the rules surrounding it, not the individuals who are using it within the existing rules.

If you want to name names feel free to do so. That's your perogative. 

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24 minutes ago, JackSprat said:

I'm questioning the product/treatment in general, and the rules surrounding it, not the individuals who are using it within the existing rules.

If you want to name names feel free to do so. That's your perogative. 

You are the one making all the claims , i merely asked you as you come across as an expert on the use of the process which if any trainers you know use it for the purposes you raised

 

1 hour ago, Newmarket RC said:

Ask yourself a couple of simple question - "What healing is a fit and healthy racehorse in need of immediately before to a major race?" and if it does need healing "Why is it racing?"

I have and always come back with my question to you , who is doing  this process on fit and healthy horses immediately before a race as you patently insinuate. Names please

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1 hour ago, tim vince said:

Iraklis unfortunately u are wasting your breath.u r right of course.but the blind will never see.

 

And they wont answer simple questions about who uses it for lets say , less than savory purposes.

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I repeat for those that are a little slow on the uptake - I raised the issue of the use of the product/treatment on otherwise fit and healthy racing horses.

The names of trainers using it "in competition" is certainly not a secret. I suggest you do your own research.

It's 2019 folks. Mr Google has all the answers.

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9 minutes ago, JackSprat said:

I repeat for those that are a little slow on the uptake - I raised the issue of the use of the product/treatment on otherwise fit and healthy racing horses.

The names of trainers using it "in competition" is certainly not a secret. I suggest you do your own research.

It's 2019 folks. Mr Google has all the answers.

Your a typical keyboard warrior, posts plenty of potentially libelous comments but when challenged to produce evidence to back his outrageous  previous claims he runs a mile.

If its not a secret as you say then why not share with this ecosystem the names of trainers who use it on "otherwise fit and healthy horses"

Scoobie , this is one for you to deliberate on based on your mantra dont say it if you cant prove it

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Kindly point out a single libelous word that I've posted and I'll gladly apologise to the libeled party!

That's right. There aren't any.

If you want to bait someone you're going to need to play in the shallower end of the pool!

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1 hour ago, JackSprat said:

Kindly point out a single libelous word that I've posted and I'll gladly apologise to the libeled party!

That's right. There aren't any.

If you want to bait someone you're going to need to play in the shallower end of the pool!

If  NM is playing in the shallow end based on your verbose nonsense your in the deep.end looking for a lifeguard but probably in denial  about that as well.

I wish you well in your crusade but disagree with your whole approach to this issue.

 

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Ok so I will ask the question. Are the human athletes using this ie the crusaders, the all blacks, If the answer is no. Why not?

If it is that theraputical and there is no risk. Why not?

It is to help heal not race on so there has to be a stand down period on it use. 

4 weeks from time of treatment. As they said it's not  performance enhancing.

It needs to be administered under a vets supervision and recommendation 

 

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3 hours ago, Fartoomuch said:

If  NM is playing in the shallow end based on your verbose nonsense your in the deep.end looking for a lifeguard but probably in denial  about that as well.

I wish you well in your crusade but disagree with your whole approach to this issue.

 

So you're contributing what to the discussion exactly?

I've presented a well reasoned argument as to why the treatment should be restricted to "out of competition" use, and backed it up with documentation from the product suppliers admitting that it has similar effects to a other restricted pain blocking anti-inflammatory products.

One poster with apparently no scientific knowledge, considers my comments libelous but when asked for an example disappears.

The interesting thing is that the one regular poster with a vested interest in defending the treatment hasn't come forward to counter any of the points I've made.

One can only conclude despite the howls of protests from the public gallery, that I may be on the right track.

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4 hours ago, dkc said:

Ok so I will ask the question. Are the human athletes using this ie the crusaders, the all blacks, If the answer is no. Why not?

If it is that theraputical and there is no risk. Why not?

It is to help heal not race on so there has to be a stand down period on it use. 

4 weeks from time of treatment. As they said it's not  performance enhancing.

It needs to be administered under a vets supervision and recommendation 

 

I heard some athletes were using it (in particular an American Football star whose name was mentioned but I can't recall the name as I do not follow that game  ). It has the same effect on human recovery as equine athletes (in comparison ). Can be as deadly as well.

Wonder if the crisis at Santa Anita racecourse is caused be using this technique on the horses (possibly  opposite ).

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8 hours ago, JackSprat said:

So you're contributing what to the discussion exactly?

I've presented a well reasoned argument as to why the treatment should be restricted to "out of competition" use, and backed it up with documentation from the product suppliers admitting that it has similar effects to a other restricted pain blocking anti-inflammatory products.

One poster with apparently no scientific knowledge, considers my comments libelous but when asked for an example disappears.

The interesting thing is that the one regular poster with a vested interest in defending the treatment hasn't come forward to counter any of the points I've made.

One can only conclude despite the howls of protests from the public gallery, that I may be on the right track.

Ore might also conclude from.this  post of yours that  everyone has given up  trying  to have a rational discussion  with you. I don't blame them.

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Jack, just who is using this treatment on their fit and healthy racehorses? come on there'd be no need to, as on the BoxSeat it was only spoken of in relation to soreness (I would presume muscle, joint or tendon), and the lack of performance enhancing capabilities; and I have never heard of anyone administerin this treatment to a fit and healthy racehorse, love to know where you got that one from? I think you're assuming that people are doin this, quit lettin your suspicions run away with you, come on now.....it has been in my experience as in any athlete you can sustain injuries that you can still run with, row with, cycle with and or race with and then there are those where you just gotta take time out to heal, this treatment has legitimate uses in both scenarios (by your own arguments above), and I say again its has been classed legal for use, and it has no performance enhancing capabilities, except where you and others 'think' there is, and dude, think bout this you don't broadcast all across TV on harness racings No.1 programme, out there for all the world to see putting said experts (Vet), researchers, presenters, Trackside, Boxseat programme directors reputations all on the line for a thin veneer of bullshit, sold to punters....

 

Cheers Iraklis

 

 

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4 hours ago, Fartoomuch said:

Ore might also conclude from.this  post of yours that  everyone has given up  trying  to have a rational discussion  with you. I don't blame them.

Again I ask, what exactly is your contribution to the discussion other than re-iterating the fact that you're out of your depth?

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1 hour ago, Iraklis said:

Jack, just who is using this treatment on their fit and healthy racehorses? come on there'd be no need to, as on the BoxSeat it was only spoken of in relation to soreness (I would presume muscle, joint or tendon), and the lack of performance enhancing capabilities; and I have never heard of anyone administerin this treatment to a fit and healthy racehorse, love to know where you got that one from? I think you're assuming that people are doin this, quit lettin your suspicions run away with you, come on now.....it has been in my experience as in any athlete you can sustain injuries that you can still run with, row with, cycle with and or race with and then there are those where you just gotta take time out to heal, this treatment has legitimate uses in both scenarios (by your own arguments above), and I say again its has been classed legal for use, and it has no performance enhancing capabilities, except where you and others 'think' there is, and dude, think bout this you don't broadcast all across TV on harness racings No.1 programme, out there for all the world to see putting said experts (Vet), researchers, presenters, Trackside, Boxseat programme directors reputations all on the line for a thin veneer of bullshit, sold to punters....

Cheers Iraklis

Totally agree, horses race with varying degrees of discomfort all the time. But there are rules in place to prevent otherwise lame horses suddenly becoming sound on race day.

There are a host of products that can alleviate these lameness symptoms - all of which have a withholding period leading up to racing.

Why isn't a product that claims to have the very same effects subject to the same restrictions?

If as they claim, it's simply a healing agent and doesn't enhance performance why is it necessary to use it close to a race?

The answer is obvious.

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Jack I have to ask you this would you go to the doctors if you were fit and heathy would you take your car to the mechanic if it was running perfectly then why would you spend all that money to just have your horses serum in the deep freeze if your horse is fit and heathy.

If as I think you have the All Stars Derangement Syndrome then you are more to be pitied.

Most products that have withholding periods may have an ingredient that will produce a positive swab and I'm yet to see a horses own serum produce a positive as it is impossible.

These innuendoes and nonsense you write is it because you lost $10 on a trifecta at Waikato?

I have said before your hatred and jealousy of successful horse people knows no bounds.

Ill have one more try who are you Jack everyone knows me surely you are not that timid?

Lee Pilcher

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Hey there Lee :rcfe-happy-2: how are yuh? gawd I cant for the life of me see where Jack is comin from (new treatment coupled with jumpin at shadows), when I saw BosxSeat was runnin an article on the treatment, first thing I thought was thank gawd for that! now we'll get all the bullshit sorted, and to me it was very clear and really nothin different to what you had been sayin all along, buggerd if I know.....spose when you continually look for shite in anything, you'll always see shite, reckon the dude is findin it hard to let go of the habit.....BoxSeat article was pretty clear I can't wait to see next installment, I find the subject very interesting....

 

Cheers Iraklis

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11 hours ago, JackSprat said:

Totally agree, horses race with varying degrees of discomfort all the time. But there are rules in place to prevent otherwise lame horses suddenly becoming sound on race day.

There are a host of products that can alleviate these lameness symptoms - all of which have a withholding period leading up to racing.

Why isn't a product that claims to have the very same effects subject to the same restrictions?

If as they claim, it's simply a healing agent and doesn't enhance performance why is it necessary to use it close to a race?

The answer is obvious.

Jack either prove the insinuations OR retract them and apologise...you are making some wild unsubstantiated allegations  about industry people cheating...please either prove what you say..or stop saying it..and retract what you have said..or there is a 3rd option which i really don't want to have to do... we have a happy informed group of posters who respect each other and the forum rules...either do the same or you will not be welcome here...Leigh

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My rough guess is that all stars horses using this treatment is less than 10 percent of the total number.performance

enhancing is a loaded phrase.is boost paste performance enhancing.can give 2 days out.is lasix 3.2days performance enhancing.there us a list of with holding times racing participants have to adhere to.its not hard with a good vet.

this has been cleared by vets riu it seems some either don't believe them,know better or think it's a conspiracy. Those people will never change their view.they think they know more than highly esteemed vets andrew grierson bill bishop and next week's guest herself at the top of her profession.

I guess everybody can take their choice conspiracy or science.

 

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Yes, that's right Tim.

I know that this may not be a popular comment, and I'll live with it.. but sometimes when people post, we see what we want to see and not their whole post in context.   I see what Jack is saying here.

Why would someone be using a healing agent so close to a race.  If the horse is healing then why would it be racing, in fact is shouldn't be racing.

However, if this healing agent did in fact enhance performance there would be a reason to use it close to racing.   The point is proving that it was administered because the horse did have something wrong with it in the first place, or whether it was used as an additive.

Now I'm not saying someone did it, or were thinking of doing it, but that is what I derive from the posts above.

It's not a volatile query, it's just a query and if it can be explained then great.  If it can't be then there is an issue.  That is what discussion is about on a forum. 

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