rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted February 24, 2019 Platinum Invador is in terrific form but must rely on a defection from the derby to get a start. PHOTO: Race Images. ARC to address derby qualifying anomalies - Platinum Invador victim of ‘perfect storm’ By Barry Lichter • 24 February 2019 The Auckland Racing Club will review its ranking criteria for the New Zealand Derby acknowledging its flaws are poised to deny Platinum Invador a start in the $1 million race on Saturday. Lincoln Farms’ progressive stayer showed he’s a genuine staying force when he mastered a strong field at Otaki yesterday but the $15,625 winner’s purse has left him $525 short of a spot in the 18-horse field. The horse’s connections must now rely on a defection through injury to snatch a last minute berth, both owners John Street and Neville NcAlister and trainer Lisa Latta frustrated at the club’s qualifying rules. Even ARC executive GM of racing and operations Craig Baker admits Platinum Invador looks hard done by, saying he’s the victim of “a perfect storm.’’ “There’s a fair bit to think about for next year,’’ says Baker. “There are certainly a couple of anomalies to look at - I don’t think we’ve got our criteria 100% right.’’ Top of the list for Baker and the club committee to address is the ludicrous position of horses beaten out of sight in the $1 million Karaka Classic having their earnings counted. Platinum Invador’s part-owner Neville McAlister with trainer Lisa Latta. PHOTO: Race Images.The club presently ranks derby runners in order of their earnings as three-year-olds, with the only two-year-old credits coming from money won in Group I races. But all three-year-old earnings are counted, even those in races like the Karaka event in January which is restricted to sale graduates of New Zealand Bloodstock. Under harness racing rules those sales series stakes are not counted when considering stakes for major events because they are not only not open to all horses but carry very high prizemoney. Swords Drawn, who is 16th in the derby ranking, and Prise De Fer, who is 17th, earned massive money in the Karaka Classic even though well beaten. Prise De Fer, who ran sixth, earned $17,000, and Swords Drawn who beat three home in 14th place earned $9000, stakes which have seen them make the field ahead of Platinum Invador despite having vastly inferior form lines. Prise De Fer’s sole claim to fame in five starts this season is a 1400 maiden win at Ruakaka. Swords Draw has not won in seven starts. Platinum Invador, on the other hand, has won three of his last five starts, two at middle distances, when he has come with powerful late finishes. Baker says he doesn’t think that’s fair. “I think you do have to count some of that Karaka Classic race - it would be a shame if the winner missed out on the derby - but if you run last and your prizemoney ($6000) is still counted I don’t think that’s right.’’ Baker says he will be recommending that the club changes the criteria to allow only the first nine home in the Karaka Classic to apply their earnings to the derby tally. “It’s an arbitrary number but we’ve got to draw the line somewhere and we pay back to ninth in all our other races.’’ Sword In Stone, in blue colours just inside winner Sponge Bob, will also miss out on a derby start despite just being photo-finished in the Waikato Guineas. PHOTO: Trish Dunell..Waikato Guineas exemptions Baker will also suggest that the club widen its scope for automatic qualification to include the first three home in the Waikato Guineas. Under the present rules, the Avondale Guineas, run at Ellerslie, is the only race that gives horses an exemption from the ballot if they run in the top four. That means a horse like Sword In Stone will also miss the derby even though in his last start in the Waikato Guineas he was beaten just a short neck and a long head by Sponge Bob and Arrogant, both of whom have made the field. “We can’t be having horses who are placed in a Group II staying race for three-year-olds not getting a start.’’ A Waikato Guineas safety net would also have helped runner-up Arrogant, who has only just made the cut in 18th place. Baker says if Platinum Invador had had a little more luck in the Avondale Guineas, when he was buffered and snookered throughout the run home, he would be in the derby. Instead of earning $1000 for ninth, he should really have banked at least $2500 for fifth, which would have sealed a derby start. And fourth would have guaranteed him a run. Baker says things this year have been brought to a head with three Australian horses here for the derby, putting more pressure on horses further down the qualifying order. While Nobu (10th), Botti (11th) and Tolemac (15th) have already enjoyed earning higher Australian stakes, their tally is boosted even further by the club’s rule that overseas earnings are converted to New Zealand dollars. “Normally we’re lucky if we get one Australian horse coming over.’’ Baker says he’s reasonably comfortable, however, with the derby criteria being based on prizemoney - if it was decided on ratings Platinum Invador would have been a shoe-in as he is rated 72, while six of the horses above him are in the 60s. “It’s always been done on stake money won. My understanding is when the race was run on Boxing Day it was too early in the season for horses to have been exposed enough to get a true rating. “But now that it’s run in March horses have had the time to get a true rating. “But I don’t mind the dollar element. Everyone knows where they stand.’’ Surely Sacred, outer, downs In A Twinkling in the Avondale Guineas. He is one of only three horses in the derby field who have won at 2000 metres or further. PHOTO: Trish Dunell.Middle distance credit? So should horses with superior form over middle distances get more credit? Here we have Platinum Invador excelling over 2100 metres, twice, and the only other horses in the derby field who have won over a trip are Surely Sacred, Sponge Bob and Cutadeel. At present the distance clause is only invoked to separate horses on the same earnings, says Baker. “If we start making too many clauses it gets too complicated.’’ The club does have a discretionary power to elevate horses in the rankings, or more accurately exclude any horse from the balloting conditions, but Baker is not a fan of the clause. “I’ll be questioning the need for that. You get into trouble if you start picking and choosing what horses get into the race. I think it’s better to take that clause out.’’ Baker says he’s called the connections of all horses who have made the derby cut and the only question mark he noted was over the Australian Tolemac. “But it seems he will run. He was too fresh in the Avondale Guineas and was only fair (in sixth) last time when back to a mile at Matamata.’’ Tolemac, trained here by Paul Jenkins, has earned $3375 in his four starts in New Zealand, beating two home in the Auckland Guineas and one home in the Avondale Guineas. Who would you rather back? The winner of one race, a 1600 metre maiden at Moe last August, or an improving stayer in Platinum Invador at the peak of his form. Platinum Invador sits 19th in the qualifying order for the derby, which is ranked on three-year-old prizemoney won, not ratings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilD 160 Report post Posted February 24, 2019 Connections used to add enough to the stake money to qualify for sale to HK a while ago. Could that have been done in this case at Otaki so he would have been at least 18th in order or has that been outlawed now? Black Kirrama 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevy86 2,683 Report post Posted February 24, 2019 Just reinforces how the industry has been captured by NZB.And no doubt fillies NZB Pearl Bonus stakes count as well?--that would be a travesty if true. Insider 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz (NZ) 1,719 Report post Posted February 24, 2019 Surely ratings should have some bearing on selection... as we all know stake money is rooted here! If not...potentially we could have a field of Aussie R65's filling the field in future based solely on stakes won. and I don't see Aussie stake money going down anytime soon? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patiti 274 Report post Posted February 25, 2019 18 now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jape 344 Report post Posted February 25, 2019 Bizarre! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Bukowski 408 Report post Posted February 26, 2019 Super Gee drops out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauhei Notts 1,403 Report post Posted February 26, 2019 The possibility is that this is one of the best Derby fields ever. Note how a horse as good as Sword In Stone, who was third in the Group Two Waikato Guineas when a $2.70 favourite, so it was no fluke, gets balloted out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerula 1,389 Report post Posted February 26, 2019 Go back into the breeding esp the Damline and tell me who will run 2400 well. I cant pick one standout! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted February 26, 2019 54 minutes ago, Tauhei Notts said: The possibility is that this is one of the best Derby fields ever. Note how a horse as good as Sword In Stone, who was third in the Group Two Waikato Guineas when a $2.70 favourite, so it was no fluke, gets balloted out. Should never have been. Closely placed 3rd in a 3yo G2 Guineas over 2000m and as a result was 3rd favourite on Futures. We're Doomed and Littletramp 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdytdy 5,335 Report post Posted February 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, Nerula said: Go back into the breeding esp the Damline and tell me who will run 2400 well. I cant pick one standout! Vernanme!!!! I wrote this a few weeks ago. He will relish the step to 2400m as evidenced in his pedigree: He is a full brother to the top class filly Shamrocker who won both the Australian Guineas and the AJC Derby (2400m) the only filly to ever have achieved that feat and the only filly to have won the race in the last 29 years. She also finished second in both the VRC Oaks (2500m) and the AJC Oaks (2400m). A half sister is Rock Diva who won the Auckland Cup (3200m) and ran third in the NZ Oaks (2400m). Incidentally his dam never won past 1200m. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trump 2,741 Report post Posted February 26, 2019 Bonecrusher... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 1,085 Report post Posted February 27, 2019 On 2/26/2019 at 4:57 PM, poundforpound said: Since when did a 3yo need a staying pedigree to win The Derby, or The Oaks ? ......ask Rangipo and about 100 others including Snap..... Yep. Too much pedigree analysis. You can find as much negative as you can positive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzy 143 Report post Posted February 27, 2019 Very poor that a horse like Sword in Stone only 2nd ballot. In my view stakemoney is a fair way to select the field, with the proviso that race winners take preference over maidens. On that basis Swords Drawn should be the horse which drops out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted February 27, 2019 35 minutes ago, fitzy said: Very poor that a horse like Sword in Stone only 2nd ballot. In my view stakemoney is a fair way to select the field, with the proviso that race winners take preference over maidens. On that basis Swords Drawn should be the horse which drops out. But with respect to say likes of Riverton a maiden winner there shoudnt get preference over a horse who has placings in black type races without winning in lead up races . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
We're Doomed 4,824 Report post Posted February 27, 2019 17 minutes ago, Red Rum said: But with respect to say likes of Riverton a maiden winner there shoudnt get preference over a horse who has placings in black type races without winning in lead up races . Nothing wrong with Riverton form. They should race there more often. THE TORCH 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted February 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, We're Doomed said: Nothing wrong with Riverton form. They should race there more often. Don't mind punting there to be fair , just look at the Tyler stable runners and go from there . THE TORCH 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckenzie 600 Report post Posted February 27, 2019 Just don't count the stakes money from restricted races. Chris Waller was actually saying the same thing a few weeks ago about the stakes from those Inglis and Magic Millions races and they shouldn't be used to get into the Golden Slipper. As he said, “Why should a horse sold at an auction be given an advantage (over a home bred horse)?”. https://www.racenet.com.au/news/chris-waller-says-no-to-inglis-and-magic-millions-prizemoney-for-golden-slipper-20190207 We're Doomed and Patiti 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted February 28, 2019 4 hours ago, mckenzie said: Just don't count the stakes money from restricted races. Chris Waller was actually saying the same thing a few weeks ago about the stakes from those Inglis and Magic Millions races and they shouldn't be used to get into the Golden Slipper. As he said, “Why should a horse sold at an auction be given an advantage (over a home bred horse)?”. https://www.racenet.com.au/news/chris-waller-says-no-to-inglis-and-magic-millions-prizemoney-for-golden-slipper-20190207 Kind of agree but imho there are all sides to arguement. Should say a base stake from those races be allowed. Say person goes to Karaka fronts up with cash and gets lucky . Well it's madness not to set the horse for those restricted races , horse cannot be set for Grand Final after Grand Final after Grand Final. Horse rolls home then gets a let up , it's won say maiden and a 65 beforehand with ease and is considered the gun 3 year old .So he's say 20k in bank bar restricted race. He misses out to big breeder who has a battalion of horses to throw at race , maybe one that's gone maiden , 65 and easy cruise into 3rd in a 75 rather that the pressure cooker of a restricted big money race.What iam saying is should say the Karaka million , mile etc be given a stake credit , minus the NZB inflation of stakes via the Karaka nom fees .Maybe the average of a group 3 race in NZ is included for ballot calculations ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherry_bomb 89 Report post Posted February 28, 2019 I would describe the problem as "it's easier to win the Derby if you have bought out of Karaka". Which is true, and clearly against the spirit of open competition. The cleanest solution might be to extend exempted races (and places in those races). If you have a Derby contender, its only reasonable that they should run well in at least one of the leadup races, and if they do then they are in. In the case of Platinum Invador, they set it for only one leadup race and it would have stood to miss out even if they had exempted down to 8th spot. There's no cure for that, you have to put a performance down on the racetrack at some point if you want to make a field of the top 18 3yos. $10k is about the minimum stake for both maidens and r65s, that is all he had won or placed in. You can't enter a race on potential. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckenzie 600 Report post Posted February 28, 2019 4 hours ago, poundforpound said: for Australian stakemoney convert it at 33% of its value to adjust for a NZ equivalent. Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flockofewes2 216 Report post Posted February 28, 2019 15 hours ago, poundforpound said: The obvious solution is to only attribute stakes won by the first three home in The Karaka Million races.....and for Australian stakemoney convert it at 33% of its value to adjust for a NZ equivalent. Problem solved. why is 33% a relevant conversion rate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crustyngrizzly 1,683 Report post Posted February 28, 2019 IN 2012 the Road to The Kentuckey Derby Points System was etablished to create a'' clear,practible and undestandable'' path to the Kentuckey Derby. It includes 34 qualfying races. IMO stakes money from restricted races should not count unless they are a qualifying race,if not too bad. Accepting stakemoney from restricted races would mean ,imo,handing over control of racing in NZ to a sales company. Could be a good idea some might think,but changes wouldn't end just there. Littletramp 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckenzie 600 Report post Posted March 1, 2019 A stud could put on a restricted race for horses by x stallion. Give it a big stake and suddenly there's a whole lot in the Derby by that stallion. Would that be fair? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerula 1,389 Report post Posted March 2, 2019 There you are told you was hard. what the yanks would call a crap shoot. Likely the Oaks will be the same as we have no idea of what horses can run 2400m. Just not smart betting these 3yo 2400m races.. just look at them when they come off the track the beaten ones look distressed. I think its abusive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...