Fartoomuch

Invercargill Cup

31 posts in this topic

Small but select  field racing over 3200 for 32K

Funatthebeach is chasing  his 4th cup win in last 5 starts but will be hotly opposed  by 2 Dunn runners. 

I'm sure there will be no team driving with that sort of money up.

Supporting races include 2 maidens  which I'm not that convinced should be programmed on their biggest day. Surely  F and M  races would be more productive.

 

 

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Alta Maestro Scratched
We will now see an interesting matchrace between Funatthebeach & Letspendanitetogetha 

Matchrace 2 Pres The Belle & War Admiral could be even better.

Races 8 & 10 will be absolute scorchers, so many winning chances in each.

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1 hour ago, Fartoomuch said:

Small but select  field racing over 3200 for 32K

Funatthebeach is chasing  his 4th cup win in last 5 starts but will be hotly opposed  by 2 Dunn runners. 

I'm sure there will be no team driving with that sort of money up.

Supporting races include 2 maidens  which I'm not that convinced should be programmed on their biggest day. Surely  F and M  races would be more productive.

 

 

10 years ago when we had a runner, the race was worth $55,000 and had 13 runners,all with different trainers and the vast majority of which  made or were already open class. That was at a time when you had to work your way through the grades with no drop backs.Also of note was half the field was trained by people who were small time trainers..   That was only 10 years ago.

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16 minutes ago, what a post said:

10 years ago when we had a runner, the race was worth $55,000 and had 13 runners,all with different trainers and the vast majority of which  made or were already open class. That was at a time when you had to work your way through the grades with no drop backs.Also of note was half the field was trained by people who were small time trainers..   That was only 10 years ago.

I'm hearing you. When Hands Down won it  DG had 2 starters and a toss of the coin in the house bar a few nights earlier saw Bob  Cameron take the reins with Peter driving the other.

 

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11 hours ago, what a post said:

10 years ago when we had a runner, the race was worth $55,000 and had 13 runners,all with different trainers and the vast majority of which  made or were already open class. That was at a time when you had to work your way through the grades with no drop backs.Also of note was half the field was trained by people who were small time trainers..   That was only 10 years ago.

Unsure of your point here but it was a Group 3 race for a couple of years.

One year when BGrudge won from Bondy and Classic Cullen it was worth $63000.

It often has a 5 or 6 win front and I think the year you refer to 8 of the 13 horses had won 8 or less races with only 1 having won more than 10...give or take the odd penalty free win.It rarely has 10 or more horses  ,and the stake has decreased as timing not ideal and its at bottom of world.

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1 hour ago, tasman man 11 said:

Unsure of your point here but it was a Group 3 race for a couple of years.

One year when BGrudge won from Bondy and Classic Cullen it was worth $63000.

It often has a 5 or 6 win front and I think the year you refer to 8 of the 13 horses had won 8 or less races with only 1 having won more than 10...give or take the odd penalty free win.It rarely has 10 or more horses  ,and the stake has decreased as timing not ideal and its at bottom of world.

The points I was making I thought I had explained,I was making a comparison, but they were these.  1) the stake has declined significantly.   2) the field size and quality has declined significantly . The contribution of small stables is virtually non existent anymore, and just a reflection of how the small trainers have left the sport.. 

The field for tomorrows race has as its backmarkers  horses who have won 7 and 9 races,.  The field of 8 tomorrow includes horses who have won only 2,3, andn5 races.  Its pretty obvious to me that there is no comparison to an Invercargill cup field now,to what it was  even only 10 years ago.

 

Your point of being at the bottom of the world  had no relevance 10 years ago,so why do you think it somehow does now.?

Why do you think after being run at roughly the same time each year all of a sudden means the timing is a factor. 

In my opinion neither has any real significance in the decline of this race.

As I said its a comparison of how the sport has declined rapidly in such a short space of time. Sometimes I think people should be reminded. Then they should reflect on why.

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15 hours ago, Fartoomuch said:

Small but select  field racing over 3200 for 32K

Funatthebeach is chasing  his 4th cup win in last 5 starts but will be hotly opposed  by 2 Dunn runners. 

I'm sure there will be no team driving with that sort of money up.

Supporting races include 2 maidens  which I'm not that convinced should be programmed on their biggest day. Surely  F and M  races would be more productive.

 

 

They programme maidens NZCup day - I think it is poor programming - so I guess Invercargill can too .

I think programming of lower class races on feature days needs a review . I agree specific races to get a time for a mare on a big day better than average maidens .

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23 hours ago, Fartoomuch said:

I'm hearing you. When Hands Down won it  DG had 2 starters and a toss of the coin in the house bar a few nights earlier saw Bob  Cameron take the reins with Peter driving the other.

 

Dunno about this ?

I note Blossom Lady [ DG Jones ] won the race twice ,when it was an open 2700m mobile for a stake of around $24000.

Her second win in 1992 ,she beat the good local horse Giovanetto in a 6 horse field.

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10 hours ago, what a post said:

The points I was making I thought I had explained,I was making a comparison, but they were these.  1) the stake has declined significantly.   2) the field size and quality has declined significantly . The contribution of small stables is virtually non existent anymore, and just a reflection of how the small trainers have left the sport.. 

The field for tomorrows race has as its backmarkers  horses who have won 7 and 9 races,.  The field of 8 tomorrow includes horses who have won only 2,3, andn5 races.  Its pretty obvious to me that there is no comparison to an Invercargill cup field now,to what it was  even only 10 years ago.

 

Your point of being at the bottom of the world  had no relevance 10 years ago,so why do you think it somehow does now.?

Why do you think after being run at roughly the same time each year all of a sudden means the timing is a factor. 

In my opinion neither has any real significance in the decline of this race.

As I said its a comparison of how the sport has declined rapidly in such a short space of time. Sometimes I think people should be reminded. Then they should reflect on why.

In a round about way we can agree on certain things ,but the race has never been much chop......at times it has had 6 to 9 starters ,this despite it being one of the best stakes in the region along with 3 yr old Southern Supremacy stakes.

The 'cup' did get Group 3 status at one stage for a period hence its good stake.

It often had a 5 or 6 win Front Line ,hence it often has more starters off handicaps.A few Canterbury trainers have regularly supported the race since it became a handicap including RDunn, NMcgrath and MPurdon. Usually it attracts several Canterbury horses but is a chance for local Southern horses to race for a better stake.

But it being a 3200m stand probably not ideal to many .

And the calendar has changed over the years ,late January not a good time for 'feature' races in NZ IMO. Particularly as the horses moving thru the grades are the ones being sold these days.

And it is a long way to travel...it has 3 Canterbury horses out of 9 starters today but the meeting has very few horses north of the Waitaki at the meeting.

I never intended to start an argument ,but the suggestion that it was an "Open class" event with 10 + winners not quite true along with another post re Hands Down.

The easiest way to check the race history IMO is to do a Horse search on last years winner Maverick , go to its recent race start in Invercargill Cup ,click on result then click on Race History and the facts can be checked from there !

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2 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

Dunno about this ?

I note Blossom Lady [ DG Jones ] won the race twice ,when it was an open 2700m mobile for a stake of around $24000.

Her second win in 1992 ,she beat the good local horse Giovanetto in a 6 horse field.

Ok i may have got them around the wrong way. I remember the toss in the house bar as i was asked to toss the coin. From memory they were both happy with the outcome given everyone though Pete would get first pick.

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Well it turned out to be a reasonable 4 horse race,but you had to feel sorry for the 2 win horse who walked over the line ,and surprise ,surprise is now required to get a vet clearance due to its poor after race  recovery. The 3 win horse at least got within 200m of the winner.

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10 hours ago, what a post said:

Well it turned out to be a reasonable 4 horse race,but you had to feel sorry for the 2 win horse who walked over the line ,and surprise ,surprise is now required to get a vet clearance due to its poor after race  recovery. The 3 win horse at least got within 200m of the winner.

Whilst you may be factually correct about the slower ones in the race you might want to consider that roughies do run out of their skin at long odds and win/place in racing. Karaka 3 yr old race saw a the second horse pay 28 for a place on yesterday.

For others and this includes many races the owners just want to start their horse in a particular race even though they know they have little if any chance

 

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Morning

There are some good points made in this thread re Invercargill Cup. It was a disappointing field this year but I am sure/hope the fields for the race will be better in future. I think this shows the lack of open class or near to it horses around at the moment. 

Funatthebeach won easily. He is a progressive type and been well placed by his training team. He could be a contender for NZ Cup this year? Another cup for Trevor Casey's mantlepiece. :rcfe-happy-2:

Edited by Thejanitor
spelling

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2 hours ago, Fartoomuch said:

Whilst you may be factually correct about the slower ones in the race you might want to consider that roughies do run out of their skin at long odds and win/place in racing. Karaka 3 yr old race saw a the second horse pay 28 for a place on yesterday.

For others and this includes many races the owners just want to start their horse in a particular race even though they know they have little if any chance

 

true,buts lets be realistic about Dunrobin.,the Shirley trained horse.   It had run last in 3 runs in the 1 to 2 win grade,but what was a little disturbing was at its last start,5 days before yesterdays race,the driver reported his concern to stipes about how it had raced so lethargically.. 

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Good to see a 'small time trainer' still there giving it a crack and it did little to distract from the event.

3200m stands are not too common these days and many horses wouldn't cope with it at 4min pace. 

We entered a horse in a group 1 race recently and it finished last after a tardy beginning. Do I regret ?......NO.

In the 2009 Invercargill Cup worth much more stake-wise several horses were tailed off ,with the favourite Nearea Franco finishing last ,dropping off alarmingly at 800m.It just wasn't her day.

It's a while since I watched any Invercargill trots but it was noticeable how badly some well favoured runners fared yesterday and how well some outsiders ran.

A couple of the races  watched were farcical, particularly R5 won by rank outsider Annie Fitz. After a check at start there were some 6 occasions when horses broke for little reason ,rare in a pacing race.

Someone mentioned there could have been a wind issue !

The race was not a good look for Harness , plus the time of 2min 50 + added to the farce.

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4 hours ago, dkc said:

Dunrobin received $640 for finishing last in this race. If he had started in his own grade he would have received $200.

Think trainer was just proving a point about some of the discrepancy in this pay losers system!

Really,what a clever way to prove his point.  Lets run last by 300m and have to get a veterinary clearance so it can run again. He gets an extra $450 to help pay for the vets bill.Good job. Have either of you actually watched its runs in the last 3 weeks? Perhaps you should because you will see it would have no chance in a weak non win race.  Their horse,their choice, which I am judging on its actual performances,nothing else.    You may have done the same ,personally I would not. 

By the way,if the trainer wanted to illustrate the discrepancy in the  pay losers system as you say,what a strange way of going about it. Enter a horse to get the $650,thus proving it works in his case,

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3 hours ago, what a post said:

 

Really,what a clever way to prove his point.  Lets run last by 300m and have to get a veterinary clearance so it can run again. He gets an extra $450 to help pay for the vets bill.Good job. Have either of you actually watched its runs in the last 3 weeks? Perhaps you should because you will see it would have no chance in a weak non win race.  Their horse,their choice, which I am judging on its actual performances,nothing else.    You may have done the same ,personally I would not. 

By the way,if the trainer wanted to illustrate the discrepancy in the  pay losers system as you say,what a strange way of going about it. Enter a horse to get the $650,thus proving it works in his case,

What a Post...you seem a bit grumpy.

A lot of posters on here resent the All Stars winning so many significant races and also scoff at battlers enjoying their passion and lining up in races with little or no chance or winning.

Then blame these these extremes and everything in between on the decline in the Harness and racing industry.

They long for the 'good old days 'when stakes were overall quite comparable but costs were 20% of what they are now.

Racing has never been so 'honest' as it is now....but there is so many alternatives to bet on , racing remains one of the most boring and less attractive options.

Folk jumping on social media and continually rubbishing every little blip in the Industry hardly helps.

And no I had no interest in checking the horses credentials.....I had no need to ,it was kind of obvious and I wouldn't feel better rubbishing the horses connections and credentials.

 

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1 hour ago, tasman man 11 said:

What a Post...you seem a bit grumpy.

A lot of posters on here resent the All Stars winning so many significant races and also scoff at battlers enjoying their passion and lining up in races with little or no chance or winning.

Then blame these these extremes and everything in between on the decline in the Harness and racing industry.

They long for the 'good old days 'when stakes were overall quite comparable but costs were 20% of what they are now.

Racing has never been so 'honest' as it is now....but there is so many alternatives to bet on , racing remains one of the most boring and less attractive options.

Folk jumping on social media and continually rubbishing every little blip in the Industry hardly helps.

And no I had no interest in checking the horses credentials.....I had no need to ,it was kind of obvious and I wouldn't feel better rubbishing the horses connections and credentials.

 

Post of the year, congrats on succinctly talking about and introducing the "Blame Game" phobia which a few on here and ,more so elsewhere have, An fine example of sifting the wheat from the chaff.

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2 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

What a Post...you seem a bit grumpy.

A lot of posters on here resent the All Stars winning so many significant races and also scoff at battlers enjoying their passion and lining up in races with little or no chance or winning.

Then blame these these extremes and everything in between on the decline in the Harness and racing industry.

They long for the 'good old days 'when stakes were overall quite comparable but costs were 20% of what they are now.

Racing has never been so 'honest' as it is now....but there is so many alternatives to bet on , racing remains one of the most boring and less attractive options.

Folk jumping on social media and continually rubbishing every little blip in the Industry hardly helps.

And no I had no interest in checking the horses credentials.....I had no need to ,it was kind of obvious and I wouldn't feel better rubbishing the horses connections and credentials.

 

Not a grumpy person. Expressing an opinion contrary to you does not make one grumpy. 

I note you have made a point of disagreeing with me in the past,which seems to have started when I expressed an opinion different to yours on an earlier thread. That says more about you than it does myself, or maybe you just don't see things as I do.  That's fine by me.

Brent Shirley is not a battler at all,he is a very good full time trainer. Check his record out before you put words in my mouth.

You refer to me resenting the all stars. What a load of bullocks.  I have made no reference to the all stars here..Yes I do think their domination discourages many to sell their up and coming horses overseas.. However for you to say I resent something that has no impact on me personally,well  your just putting words in my mouth that I have never expressed.

Yes,i do lament the  decline in participation ,however in the past I have posted many times expressing opinions on how to improve the sport.  

You state you had no interest in checking the horses credentials ,yet you comment on my statements.   Is that your normal approach,I have no problem with you expressing an opinion different to mine,.  I would however suggest you do some homework next time before commenting.

 You refer  to me feeling better rubbishing the horses connections by commenting on a social media platform as you put it.  Has it ever occurred to you that  there is a  video of the race for all to see  You cant seem to differentiate between someone commentng on something involving whoever,from someone commenting on an issue involving that person. To me there is a difference. Maybe that's just your approach,thats up to you.

What is racecafe actually for.. I had thought it was to discuss what people talk about, and there for people to express opinions. You appear to have a differing opinion expecting everything to be positive feedback..   

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WAP....dunno where I referred to any of your All Star posts/opinions.

Opinions are just that but when facts get skewed on a thread , it does no harm to try and get things sorted. 

Southland Harness never really interested me .

Good to see you have me as a 'black booker' and follow my history.

Have a great 2019 !

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3 hours ago, tasman man 11 said:

WAP....dunno where I referred to any of your All Star posts/opinions.

Opinions are just that but when facts get skewed on a thread , it does no harm to try and get things sorted. 

Southland Harness never really interested me .

Good to see you have me as a 'black booker' and follow my history.

Have a great 2019 !

I think thats the way forward TM,

Gee its great to see so many posting here...no fighting just honest but contested debate...Given the heatwave im surprised theres not more grumpiness,r name calling or stirring...its a pleasure to post these days

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On 1/25/2019 at 11:00 AM, Fartoomuch said:

I'm hearing you. When Hands Down won it  DG had 2 starters and a toss of the coin in the house bar a few nights earlier saw Bob  Cameron take the reins with Peter driving the other.

 

Peter Jones won on both horses on day one. Hands Down won a lesser race thus graduating to the higher grade in which his stablemate had won on the first day. No idea about goings on in the house bar but I seems unlikely to have been the Invercargill Cup.

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