Nasrullah

racehorse rating for stallions

53 posts in this topic

Berri in another post made an interesting point.

How many racehorses have a rating that was higher than their sire? 

Berri I take it that the numbers below are not Timeform but some other rating?

 

Super Easy was a 114 rated horse at best. Darci Brahma was rated 113 at best. Burgundy was rated 107 at best. Ascot Knight was rated 120, End Sweep 118, Sir Ivor 133

 

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3 hours ago, Nasrullah said:

Berri in another post made an interesting point.

How many racehorses have a rating that was higher than their sire? 

Berri I take it that the numbers below are not Timeform but some other rating?

 

Super Easy was a 114 rated horse at best. Darci Brahma was rated 113 at best. Burgundy was rated 107 at best. Ascot Knight was rated 120, End Sweep 118, Sir Ivor 133

 

Yep it certainly doesn't fit into a box like that picking stallions does it? I think the likes of Rodrigo De Triano,Generous,Entrepreneur,Sir Percy etc to name a few were highly rated who hardly set the breeding ranks on fire.

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I'm of the belief that ratings are in two parts. The first is the official rating (Timeform or Racing Post will do). Then I look to see the best single performance because that is the rating that is their best performance unless the rater has got it wrong. The ratings I have provided are the latter. 

The problem that I have is that even though a champion in New Zealand, many of our horses are inferior to those in other markets. Super Easy and Darci Brahma are two examples of those stallions. Due to franking their form, their official ratings are average in relation to what stallion material should be. The interesting thing is that their progeny are following the same path. Although stakes winners are plentiful of the breed in NZ, when they compete in a competitive market like Australia they get rolled. The "breed shaper" Darci Brahma's progeny couldn't get to the top over there. Neither could Volksraad, where he is a multiple champion stallion but in Aussie just OK.

We're lucky to have Savabeel and Tavistock. They were proven in those racing markets and had good ratings. Gone are the days where a half brother to a champion make it as a stallion. The competition has moved on. That is why the likes of Almanzor need to be embraced. They rarely come here. When they do (Montjeu, High Chapparal etc) we do well. Note they are both stayers.

Our breeders have lost their way but our administrators are at fault. We do not have a staying program. We have lost our edge because of it. If the NZRB and the NZTR don't get together and develop this program, they all need sacking.

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Berri I agree with you.

Very easily to be fooled by a good performance in NZ.

It is a case of the depth of the horses they raced against.

Comparing horses should be done of a global sense. Not saying a NZ raced horse can't make it at stud but how do you compare how good they really are?

Then when you see a great NZ racehorse go to Australia and they are 6 lengths behind them they get found out!

 

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On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 3:36 PM, Berri said:

I'm of the belief that ratings are in two parts. The first is the official rating (Timeform or Racing Post will do). Then I look to see the best single performance because that is the rating that is their best performance unless the rater has got it wrong. The ratings I have provided are the latter. 

The problem that I have is that even though a champion in New Zealand, many of our horses are inferior to those in other markets. Super Easy and Darci Brahma are two examples of those stallions. Due to franking their form, their official ratings are average in relation to what stallion material should be. The interesting thing is that their progeny are following the same path. Although stakes winners are plentiful of the breed in NZ, when they compete in a competitive market like Australia they get rolled. The "breed shaper" Darci Brahma's progeny couldn't get to the top over there. Neither could Volksraad, where he is a multiple champion stallion but in Aussie just OK.

We're lucky to have Savabeel and Tavistock. They were proven in those racing markets and had good ratings. Gone are the days where a half brother to a champion make it as a stallion. The competition has moved on. That is why the likes of Almanzor need to be embraced. They rarely come here. When they do (Montjeu, High Chapparal etc) we do well. Note they are both stayers.

Our breeders have lost their way but our administrators are at fault. We do not have a staying program. We have lost our edge because of it. If the NZRB and the NZTR don't get together and develop this program, they all need sacking.

How can you compare Savabeel and Tavistock in the same sentence as proven in Australia?

Savabeel was a Group1 winner in Australia, rating 122 for his Cox Plate win. While Tavistock won the Group2 Blamey Statkes rating 115. The Blamey Stakes is at the back end of the Melbourne autumn, when all the good horse have gone to Sydney after the Australian Cup/Newmarket Day at Flemington.

Both Darci Brahma and Tavistock were "NZ Champion Sprinters" of their year but both bever won an Open Class Group 1 in Australia, to put it politely.

Savabeel has no peer in the NZ stallion ranks - his sales record year on year speaks for itself!

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If you’d seen the Blamey Stakes win you’d realise it was a top

class performance as he finished the race off with a serious turn of foot. This is an attribute that I seriously like in stallion selection.  Tavistock was actually known for having a turn of foot. Dad I Brahma only won a weak 2yo go 1 so different from the Blamey.

You need a bit of history to then compare Tavistock to Savabeel. Savabeel went to Australia to race from the get go. A good horse that won a weak Cox Plate(not knocking the race though). Tavistock on the other hand started out in NZ with Patrick Campbell. Interesting trainer. Barn storming 2yo win a Trentham and then put on plane and sent to Mick Price. Won a listed but hated Aussie. Was sent back to NZ. Took him no time to show turn of foot at 4. Hogan bought into him. Put on plane to Aussie as a last minute shot at proving him against their best and smashed the Blamey. From memory went into a group 1 a  short time after but although barn storming couldn’t quite get to the leaders.

sometimes one has to look under the covers to find the lost jewels. 

 

 

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I think sometimes history seems to dull our memories.....was on course the day Tavistock won the Blamey and yes it was a pretty good win but against a very average Group 2 field only 2 weeks after he had finished a well beaten 5th of 6 in a Group 1 over the same distance...….and while Savabeel's Cox Plate field wasn't the strongest ever he still did beat a dual Cox Plate winner in Fields of Omagh with 5 time Group 1 winner Starcraft third and 7 times Group 1 winner Grand Armee fourth.

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9 hours ago, drewandjo said:

I think sometimes history seems to dull our memories.....was on course the day Tavistock won the Blamey and yes it was a pretty good win but against a very average Group 2 field only 2 weeks after he had finished a well beaten 5th of 6 in a Group 1 over the same distance...….and while Savabeel's Cox Plate field wasn't the strongest ever he still did beat a dual Cox Plate winner in Fields of Omagh with 5 time Group 1 winner Starcraft third and 7 times Group 1 winner Grand Armee fourth.

Don't disagree with what you have said. As I said, a good horse that won a perceived weakish Cox Plate (but you can't knock the race). In the Futurity, they rode Tavistock on the pace when you needed to leave him alone.

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13 hours ago, Berri said:

If you’d seen the Blamey Stakes win you’d realise it was a top

class performance as he finished the race off with a serious turn of foot. This is an attribute that I seriously like in stallion selection.  Tavistock was actually known for having a turn of foot. Dad I Brahma only won a weak 2yo go 1 so different from the Blamey.

You need a bit of history to then compare Tavistock to Savabeel. Savabeel went to Australia to race from the get go. A good horse that won a weak Cox Plate(not knocking the race though). Tavistock on the other hand started out in NZ with Patrick Campbell. Interesting trainer. Barn storming 2yo win a Trentham and then put on plane and sent to Mick Price. Won a listed but hated Aussie. Was sent back to NZ. Took him no time to show turn of foot at 4. Hogan bought into him. Put on plane to Aussie as a last minute shot at proving him against their best and smashed the Blamey. From memory went into a group 1 a  short time after but although barn storming couldn’t quite get to the leaders.

sometimes one has to look under the covers to find the lost jewels. 

 

 

But he DIDN'T beat their best in the Blamely. It was an average Group2 at the back end of the Melbourne Autumn. You're a franker of form, so surley you have franked the form of the horses he beat to know how average the field was?

Darci Brahma ran 2nd, beaten a length by Apache Cat in the Group 1 Australian Guineas. Apache Cat next start beat Racing To Win, who then went on to win the Group1s: George Ryder and Donncaster Mile on the bounce. Apache Cat was a champion Aussie, who won 5 Group1 sprints in a row!

After the Blamely, Tavistock raced in the Group1 TJ Smith, ridden at the back of the field accordingly to his best racing pattern and was so "barn storming" that he ran last beaten 5.75L!

Savabeel's race record, stud record and sales record shows how very lucky NZ is to have him - today's Karaka Million quinella proves that he has no peer in the NZ stallion ranks!

 

 

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I'm not sure why you're strenuously asserting something that doesn't need asserting. We were talking stallions/ racehorses. Yes Darci Brahma ran second to Apache Cat but after that he was 4th in the Phar Lap and 8th in the Rosehill Guineas. He then ran second in the Stony Bridge, got smashed in the Toorak and then won the Telegraph. Only other start after that he won the Te Rapa Group 1. If there ever was a form franker to indicate NZ racing is now not up to it, its this horse.

As for Tavistock you are right.....I could argue that when winning the group one at Hastings, he beat Mufhasa who subsequently beat Pinker Pinker in the Futurity. Didn't Pinker Pinker win the Cox Plate?

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It brings good balance to the discussion, considering that you said Tavistock proved himself against "the best" by smashing a Group 2 Aussie field, while denegrating Savabeel's Group 1 Cox Plate win as a "weak Cox Plate"

Since when have "the best" raced in Group 2s in any world racing jurisdiction?

Furthermore you diss Darci Brahma's form as a NZ champion who wasn't competitive at the top level in Australia, while forgetting that Tavistock was also a NZ champion that wasn't competitive at the top level in Australia.

Tavistock's 3 runs at Group 1 level in Australia resulted in finishing positions: 15 of 16, 5 of 6 and 7 of 7.

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I’m not sure what you are reading but I never said he “proved himself against the best”. Where did you grab that quote from? Don’t fake news your post for convenience. To be correct, I said he put up a top class performance. Big difference.

as for the Cox Plate,  we have historically had strong and weak Cox Plates. It’s just a function of an era. There will always be multiple group one winners in that race. That’s why I stated “I’m not knocking the race” . Start reading properly and use a few interpretive powers . Makes life a bit easier. Savabeel ‘s Cox Plate has not been recognised as one of the goodies. 

And on Tavistock vs Darci Brahma, you once again don’t get it. Darci Brahma couldn’t win a group race in Australia post the Brisbane 2yo race, whereas Tavistock did.  That’s the point and this discussion was all about stallions vs racehorses.

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Berri - statistically, does racing excellence automatically translate to stallion excellence?   Not trying to be clever,  just musing.

Certainly,  racing fame generally leads to a place at a major stud with corresponding access to quality mares.  That aside...?

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Pam

Your question is a good one. My answer would be NO. To take a couple of recent examples : Cape Blanco was a very good race horse but not very good at stud. I am Invincible , by normal measures, did not have a great race record ( 5 wins but only 1 was at group level --a Grp 3) for a potential stallion but he has shown otherwise.

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On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 7:32 AM, Berri said:

If you’d seen the Blamey Stakes win you’d realise it was a top

class performance as he finished the race off with a serious turn of foot. This is an attribute that I seriously like in stallion selection.  Tavistock was actually known for having a turn of foot. Dad I Brahma only won a weak 2yo go 1 so different from the Blamey.

You need a bit of history to then compare Tavistock to Savabeel. Savabeel went to Australia to race from the get go. A good horse that won a weak Cox Plate(not knocking the race though). Tavistock on the other hand started out in NZ with Patrick Campbell. Interesting trainer. Barn storming 2yo win a Trentham and then put on plane and sent to Mick Price. Won a listed but hated Aussie. Was sent back to NZ. Took him no time to show turn of foot at 4. Hogan bought into him. Put on plane to Aussie as a last minute shot at proving him against their best and smashed the Blamey. From memory went into a group 1 a  short time after but although barn storming couldn’t quite get to the leaders.

sometimes one has to look under the covers to find the lost jewels. 

 

 

Fake news? lol yeah nah!

Yes this discussion is about stallions vs racehorses but you seem to get facts mixed up with actual perfromace. Let's "Fact check" your above claims. 

You actually need to go back through his form line. Tavistock had another 2 starts in NZ as a 2yo after his "barn storming" win at Trentham finishing 2 of 6 in a 2yo handicap then 6 of 16 in the Sires Stakes; before being sent to Mick Price.

As a 3yo in the Melbourne spring, the horse rand 2nd in a Listed 1100m first up then won an Open 3yo race over 1400m second up before his 4 of 13 in the Guineas Prelude before his 15 of 16 n thre Guineas.

Was sent back to NZ after his failure in the Caulfield Guineas, and didn't race again for nearly a year. Back home as a 4yo, after his 1st up win in the Mudgeway, he ran 6 of 14 in the Windsor and  8 of 16 in the Kelt.

As a race horse he never put two wins together and a fair observation would be that he was as inconistent as his "turn of foot and barn storming finishes"

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Fake news you moron was the assertion that I stated that Tavistock “beat a top class field “ in the Blamey. I never said any such thing. ....so fake news

as for Tavistock’s form, why are you even suggesting that by not fully discussing every one of his starts is fake news, then I’m afraid you need to engage more often with Trump. He may be the best option for you.

and to answer a previous post by Pam, I actually think stallions are born and not made. For whatever reason, Sir Tristram didn’t fit any of the modern conventional mode. Neither did Mr Prospector nor I am Invincible . We have Galileo siring 80 odd group one winners with a string of group one winning 2 and 3 year olds. Only Teofilo has put his hand up. What about Frankel would you say? Well with a first and second crop of mates that consisted of 84 group winners or dams of group winners in each season, including 21 group one winners, then you’d be wondering whether he’s actually an improver. I’m not convinced Galileo is a sire of sires

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1 hour ago, Berri said:

Fake news you moron was the assertion that I stated that Tavistock “beat a top class field “ in the Blamey. I never said any such thing. ....so fake news

as for Tavistock’s form, why are you even suggesting that by not fully discussing every one of his starts is fake news, then I’m afraid you need to engage more often with Trump. He may be the best option for you.

and to answer a previous post by Pam, I actually think stallions are born and not made. For whatever reason, Sir Tristram didn’t fit any of the modern conventional mode. Neither did Mr Prospector nor I am Invincible . We have Galileo siring 80 odd group one winners with a string of group one winning 2 and 3 year olds. Only Teofilo has put his hand up. What about Frankel would you say? Well with a first and second crop of mates that consisted of 84 group winners or dams of group winners in each season, including 21 group one winners, then you’d be wondering whether he’s actually an improver. I’m not convinced Galileo is a sire of sires

LOL you are hilarious.

You claim Tavistock was put on a plane to Mick Price after his barn storming win as a 2yo at Trentham. Fact Check: He had another 2 starts, failing in the G1 Sires Produce before being sent to Price.

You claim Tavistock won a LISTED race as a 3yo in Melbourne. Fact check: He ran 2nd in a Listed race and only won a 3yo Open Hcp.

You claim he was "Given a chance to prove himself against the best and smashed the Blamey"; impliyng that he raced the best in the Blamey.

At least Darci ACTUALLY won a G1 in Australia.

The only one sounding like Trump is yourself. Any other claims you want to make? 

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Are you actually reading what you write. He won a 2yo race, and was sent to Mick Price. That is a fact. Did I say anything different? If he didn’t win a listed in Melbourne then that is a mistake. I did not look his race record up and I was relying on my post Christmas brain cell to operate correctly.

I can’t help it that you cannot read or interpret the written language but if you bothered to read what I said it was “Put on plane to Aussie as a last minute shot at proving him against their best and smashed the Blamey”. Where in that is there English language content that would get you to the position that I said he beat the best in the Blamey.  

Take another pull on the drink you’ve obviously got in your hand and stop the gastropodial behaviour. 

In my book a soft 2yo autumn group one isn’t as good as a Melbourne old age Gp2 but that’s my opinion only. Or are we going to discuss the numerous failures that Darci Brahma had after that.

call Trump. He might want to listen to you. He’s got no one else to talk to. Your chance I would have thought 

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23 minutes ago, Berri said:

Are you actually reading what you write. He won a 2yo race, and was sent to Mick Price. That is a fact. Did I say anything different? If he didn’t win a listed in Melbourne then that is a mistake. I did not look his race record up and I was relying on my post Christmas brain cell to operate correctly.

I can’t help it that you cannot read or interpret the written language but if you bothered to read what I said it was “Put on plane to Aussie as a last minute shot at proving him against their best and smashed the Blamey”. Where in that is there English language content that would get you to the position that I said he beat the best in the Blamey.  

Take another pull on the drink you’ve obviously got in your hand and stop the gastropodial behaviour. 

In my book a soft 2yo autumn group one isn’t as good as a Melbourne old age Gp2 but that’s my opinion only. Or are we going to discuss the numerous failures that Darci Brahma had after that.

call Trump. He might want to listen to you. He’s got no one else to talk to. Your chance I would have thought 

It is pretty clear who needs to read what they write and comprehend written English.

You write: "Barn storming 2yo win a Trentham and then put on plane and sent to Mick Price" 

An English lesson for you: "Then" : 1. at that time; at the time of question.   2. after that; next afterwards.

So was he given a chance to prove it against the best in the Blamey or not? Considering as you saaid the "Best" weren't racing in thr Blamey? 

Darci won the same G1 as The Autumn Sun - the same G1 that Chris Waller targets every year with his late 2yos. Good enough for Waller but not good enough for Berri lol.

How barn storming was his finish again in the G1 TJ Smith but couln't quite get the leaders? lol

You are very Trump like indeed: Boastful claims that once proven as "bullsh**te" through "Fact checking", you cry "Fake news"

 
 
 
 
 

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3 hours ago, Virtual.Stipe said:

It is pretty clear who needs to read what they write and comprehend written English.

You write: "Barn storming 2yo win a Trentham and then put on plane and sent to Mick Price" 

An English lesson for you: "Then" : 1. at that time; at the time of question.   2. after that; next afterwards.

So was he given a chance to prove it against the best in the Blamey or not? Considering as you saaid the "Best" weren't racing in thr Blamey? 

Darci won the same G1 as The Autumn Sun - the same G1 that Chris Waller targets every year with his late 2yos. Good enough for Waller but not good enough for Berri lol.

How barn storming was his finish again in the G1 TJ Smith but couln't quite get the leaders? lol

You are very Trump like indeed: Boastful claims that once proven as "bullsh**te" through "Fact checking", you cry "Fake news"

 
 
 
 
 

Learn English. ..read before you jump...not worth the hot air.....

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5 minutes ago, Berri said:

Learn English. ..read before you jump...not worth the hot air.....

LOL how many claims did you make that were proved "bullsh**e when fact checked? Plenty for all and sundry to see Berri Trump :rcfe-laughing:

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