RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
tim vince

stakemoney

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how do u galloping blokes cop 10k races on a Saturday.

 

u need to win one a  month to get square. I have had a million  gallopers down to 1. the darkside pay u to start- Auckland trotting going to  15-20k per race in march plus hrnz give u  a 1500 top up if u win a maiden race. no nom fees and much cheaper training fees- how the hell do trainers get owners.

 

 

 

also the number of starts per year per horse  probably 3 times more at harness.

cancellations maybe 2 a year- tracks the same- if u own gallopers I salute you- u must love being punished.

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1 hour ago, tim vince said:

how do u galloping blokes cop 10k races on a Saturday.

 

u need to win one a  month to get square. I have had a million  gallopers down to 1. the darkside pay u to start- Auckland trotting going to  15-20k per race in march plus hrnz give u  a 1500 top up if u win a maiden race. no nom fees and much cheaper training fees- how the hell do trainers get owners.

 

 

 

also the number of starts per year per horse  probably 3 times more at harness.

cancellations maybe 2 a year- tracks the same- if u own gallopers I salute you- u must love being punished.

Training fees . Now my understanding is 3200 odd a month for syndicate horse or thereabouts,  x 12 . 39k a year. Now if someone can tell me do they charge for full 12 months because even old Sir Slick spelled for couple months year . 3200 for spelling , cannot be right ?. Do they build up a bit for contingency then divi it up if not used. I've seen 4 year olds sacked by these syndicates earning sweet FA on track , christ if you wanna do 100k pro rata for three or four arse end runs at empty shit tracks midweek over 3 years of fees. Good on you , hope you enjoy subsidising a lifestyle for someone else. Each to there own though. I'd say it would be very very  low percentage close to returning investment , but fun if you get a good one.

 

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Some nice horses running and winning today for rubbish money.OK if they win other races but if its their only win then a considerable loss is coming.

Friend of mine was in a syndicate and when it came to spelling he suggested that he could spell it for next to nothing on his 30 acre property.

That wasn't good enough for the syndicate manager who sent it to'' where we send all our horses to spell'''.

Needless to say after a couple of poor runs he was out and never been back in.

Corporatisation is what its called.

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22 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

Return to owners in NZ is 19%, for the average person it follows that if you put a million in and you’ll get $190k back.

 

 

It's a risk and whenever I've got involved I see it as money out door. You would have idea P4P , do they charge the full 3200 per month even when spelling . 

They are a business and if people pay its supply and demand  and they need a wage . I notice some syndicate managers go up to collect prize. I always thought lucky dip owners on course that day and they could do honours because they own it would be better look.

When commercial syndicates started about 30 years back in UK  , Peter Harris who was a self made very very rich man kicked them off in UK. He had a big successful stable already  , beautiful gallops to go up and watch in Tring  , but he wanted Joe and Jane Public involved .12 people brought into a horse . They were convened by his syndicate man .He had a large owners room at stables fully stocked with refreshments . They came up with syndicate name  together ,   horse name and designed their own colours to race in and voted on options  . Harris with Robert Eddery as his assistant sorted the training , his syndicate man took backseat raceday but sorted all the background stuff , tickets , paddock entry to talk to jockey , owners room on course , he never collected no prizes after a win. It was owners first.Sometimes looks on raceday it's the syndicators day out , not work time .

Incidently had a look at returns v costs  few years back , I think Turkey was very high in  table .

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1 hour ago, tim vince said:

but the point is 10k on a Saturday is really putting the boot in

 

I am struggling with your logic. Today's NZ harness meeting has one race at $10,000 and one at $13,000, the rest all lower. Tomorrow's meeting has one race over $9,000. Open class gallopers can race all over NZ every weekend for $35,000+. Virtually all the open class trotters in NZ are trained by one stable and when they win they pay about $1.40, and they only race a few times a year. Most harness meetings only cater for maidens up to about 3 or 4 wins. I have no idea what happens to harness horses once they win 3 or 4 races as there are hardly any races for them. If I recall correctly most of the races at Addington over Cup Week had stakes of about $20,000, whereas even Riccarton had minimum stakes of $30,000. And that was harness's big meeting of the year, the gallops have heaps of other more prestigious meetings.

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1 hour ago, tim vince said:

but the point is 10k on a Saturday is really putting the boot in

 

It don't matter too much because I read that stakes will double in I think it's less than 11 months now because it was reported 5 or so weeks back by top stable they are doubling in a year. 20 k for maiden not too bad . To return double the amount in a year will be truly impressive stuff . It's going to happen no doubt at all.Get buying those horses next month.In fact when they double the maiden races here will exceed the class 5 Singapore prizemoney because they heading backwards there .

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Why worry about stakes when it's a hobby or a sport , Saturday rugby players  don't get paid , cricket the same , come to think of it virtually no sports are rewarded until they turn pro , racing is the   SPORT of kings isn't it . Look at Awapuni a few days ago , trainers weren't interested in the stakes , in 4 races nobody bothered to claim 5th prise , no doubt some of the scratched horses will line up for $10k mid week .

Racings biggest problem is the age of participants , owners , trainers and punters , we are all getting old (if we are lucky) , that's the real issue facing racing .

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Talking of ownership, return on "investment" etc, I saw Jamie Richards interviewed after You're Welcome won at Matamata today and he was ''"very pleased the horse won as it had some important owners".(some league players who are also in Te Akau Shark). Would have thought "unimportant" type's money was as good as anyone's when it came to sustaining the industry so comment pretty crass. In my unimportant opinion!

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17 minutes ago, chevy86 said:

Talking of ownership, return on "investment" etc, I saw Jamie Richards interviewed after You're Welcome won at Matamata today and he was ''"very pleased the horse won as it had some important owners".(some league players who are also in Te Akau Shark). Would have thought "unimportant" type's money was as good as anyone's when it came to sustaining the industry so comment pretty crass. In my unimportant opinion!

Wrong Chevy , Gallen a VIP plus and imho possibly next heavyweight champion of the world .A slugger like  Fury wouldn't lay a glove on a purveyor of the sweet science such as Gallen, as for the other two pretenders  Wilder and Joshua they are dodging him.

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36 minutes ago, chevy86 said:

Gallen/Parker the obvious first step to the title after SBW running scared?? Respect for Gallen but surely you jest.

Very much in jest , Fury would box his ears off blindfolded , one arm tied up and other two could honestly cause him serious health issues. He's a tough bugger though in his own class and in his number one sport. Parker would do a right odd job on him too in the ring imho. Hes got himself a slice of two very good horses to be fair .Iam not  buying into the Shark hype but must admit it's one of the things iam looking forward to seeing come Autumn racing , though I suppose in saying that iam buying into the hype.

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I think Tim's original point was valid........generally harness not as expensive to get into....stallion fees and sales prices for starters ,and training fees seem much less and more free to race opportunities.

Gallops at the bigger tracks ,on a Saturday ,should be paying more than $10 k total purse.

For various reasons , Harness horses once they win a few races are harder to place so generally go on the market and that having snow-balling effect with more sales ,less races and wider rating bands which encourages more sales etc

Definitely race more than gallopers ,and track surfaces more consistent.

Both codes have their issues as most on here aware.

Kudos to Tim for doing so well with real battling horses ,often giving them a new lease of life , great care and affection and giving different drivers opportunities.

Some nice wins lately Tim [and Sheryl and the workers !] Well done.

Hang in there !

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13 hours ago, chevy86 said:

Talking of ownership, return on "investment" etc, I saw Jamie Richards interviewed after You're Welcome won at Matamata today and he was ''"very pleased the horse won as it had some important owners".(some league players who are also in Te Akau Shark). Would have thought "unimportant" type's money was as good as anyone's when it came to sustaining the industry so comment pretty crass. In my unimportant opinion!

Given that the trainers seemingly can't get stakes raised and attract new owners it would appear that some of them are impotent.

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On 12/29/2018 at 5:55 PM, poundforpound said:

Return to owners in NZ is 19%, for the average person it follows that if you put a million in and you’ll get $190k back.

 

 

Cheers Leo, is that purely the cash return for owners (stakemoney)  or does it also include the residual value of the horse as well? 

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1 hour ago, tim vince said:

Is that mainly because of government help

I think you’ll find it’s coming from taxes on the Industry itself. So altho Govt May be helping it’s thru the taxes collected from various sources within the Industry itself. So yes, it has Govt support. But not in Adelaide. Lloyd Kenniwell relocated to Flemington, Peter Stokes to Pakenham to start. Once McEvoy departs that’s the end for Adelaide. 

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32 minutes ago, Trump said:

I think you’ll find it’s coming from taxes on the Industry itself. So altho Govt May be helping it’s thru the taxes collected from various sources within the Industry itself. So yes, it has Govt support. But not in Adelaide. Lloyd Kenniwell relocated to Flemington, Peter Stokes to Pakenham to start. Once McEvoy departs that’s the end for Adelaide. 

Dead correct. The government, at least in NSW and Vic (and now Queensland) collects miles more in direct taxation from wagering on racing than they give back. So, they can afford to. Here, they collect sfa. As you say, in SA they collect it but give back nought leading to the current state of affairs there.

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after costs including initial cost of horse- the syndicators seem to take a decent slice of the action- I wonder the return of the much lauded syndicates even with a good horse.

 

the average sale price at the yearling stake is a bit higher than harness- what would be the average number of starters for a galloper.

 

at Auckland the owner will be getting 400 to run last in march- no nomination fees- how does that compare to gallops. drivers fee much lower than jockeys- training fees I general much lower- in march  more than 40 times a year stakes will  be minimum of 15k- the money is spread around much better in harness

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Would agree with that Tim except the stake money for the horses finishing further back than 5th is taken from the stakes of the first 4 horses. It's not new money and the value of winning a race is much reduced. It's like communism actually. Take money from people who have earned it (with having the best horse) and give it to the poor (who have mug horses that can't even keep up)

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6 hours ago, Stables said:

Would agree with that Tim except the stake money for the horses finishing further back than 5th is taken from the stakes of the first 4 horses. It's not new money and the value of winning a race is much reduced. It's like communism actually. Take money from people who have earned it (with having the best horse) and give it to the poor (who have mug horses that can't even keep up)

I mostly agree, except that the more horses you have in a race the more betting you have. So just by showing up a horse has helped boost turnover, so it deserves a slice of the pie.

Maybe having the code body cover all drivers' fees and not charge nomination fees is a better way to give all horses (and their owners) a share of the code revenue which they helped earn. You could call it Free Racing or something.

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16 hours ago, tim vince said:

I think return to the owner is the key-  

What you are really saying is that you don't have many opportunities to actually win much, only a few races a year, but at least you don't lose so much with a below average horse. And being proud of getting paid to run last is fairly typical. In harness racing the win stake is usually just over 50% of the total with payments back to last place, whereas in Galloping the winner traditionally gets close to 65% of the total stake. The trots do seem to get bigger fields as most meetings only cater for lower class horses, but this doesn't seem to have translated to bigger turnovers and therefore bigger stakes.

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