RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
chevy86

Ownership Clarification

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Arrived home from golf after a couple of post-round shandies and ran through the recorded gallops from Ellerslie, then deleting the recordings so cannot go back to check. Correct me if I am wrong but I am sure Stephen Marsh, when interviewed after Molto Veloce's win and the excitement of scoring a motorbike from Harley Davidson, uttered the revelation that his Danielle shared in the ownership of the winner of Race 1, Balios, with Sir Peter Vela. No mention on the NZTR website and surely not a "silent" ownership deal for a jockey? Just asking.

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18 hours ago, chevy86 said:

Arrived home from golf after a couple of post-round shandies and ran through the recorded gallops from Ellerslie, then deleting the recordings so cannot go back to check. Correct me if I am wrong but I am sure Stephen Marsh, when interviewed after Molto Veloce's win and the excitement of scoring a motorbike from Harley Davidson, uttered the revelation that his Danielle shared in the ownership of the winner of Race 1, Balios, with Sir Peter Vela. No mention on the NZTR website and surely not a "silent" ownership deal for a jockey? Just asking.

Exactly what I thought. Not only a jockey but partner to one of leading trainers. To my mind thats significant information for punters.

Over the years there have been numerous cases of officials going to the letter of the regulations concerning disclosure of ownership. Still can't get over how the officials ruined the career of Alan Pringle then based in Hastings over the part ownership by an alleged bookmaker of Dandaleith placed in the Melbourne Cup .

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6 minutes ago, slam dunk said:

Exactly what I thought. Not only a jockey but partner to one of leading trainers. To my mind thats significant information for punters.

Over the years there have been numerous cases of officials going to the letter of the regulations concerning disclosure of ownership. Still can't get over how the officials ruined the career of Alan Pringle then based in Hastings over the part ownership by an alleged bookmaker of Dandaleith placed in the Melbourne Cup .

Difference being Alan was a battler so easy pickings for the constabulary.

( Was actually there for the Cup and backed Dandaleith at 80's and from my clocktower vantage point had no idea he got to within a neck of Arwon. -no big screen in those days)

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I see a  trainer won a Harley, would the unwritten rule in this instance  be that he or she gives the owner a sling , now if horse sold on at profit  or horse wins , a little bit of a treat should go the stable and stable staff way . If owner provided the horse and paid bills wouldn't this be fair to share the love the other way in this instance ? 

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I think its a valid question. Supposedly we are talking about a half share not some 5% syndicate share. Why was it not shown in the book?

Is it because a leading owner, leading trainer, leading jockey have a different set of rules. Transparency is needed.

What happens if another trainer expects Danielle to ride their horse then finds out too late no she has to ride her own horse. And the punter thinking she had a choice but actually no choice at all she has to ride her own horse.

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10 minutes ago, Ragamuffin said:
  •  Danielle is listed as Co Owner: Sir Peter Vela & Miss Danielle Johnson
  • Breeder: Pencarrow Thoroughbreds Ltd
  • NZTR Balios details 

TAB Result

Stake: $10,000 Track: GOOD3 Weather: FINE
#
Name
Jockey/Driver/Trainer
Win
Place
 
4 Balios Jason Waddell 4.70 1.80
1 Monaco Vinnie Colgan   1.60
8 Raz Shafiq Rusof   2.20
Bet Type
Runners
Dividend
 
Quinella 1, 4 10.80
Trifecta 4:1:8 112.40
First4 4:1:8:3 432.20
ALSO RAN:
3-Mr Universe-Shaun McKay(.6L),
11-Markle-Leith Innes(1.1L),
2-Le Patron-Jonathan Riddell(3.3L),
6-Switch Pitcher-Jordan Nason(5.4L),
7-Sakhee's Rocket-Sam Spratt(6.9L),
9-Six Schillings-Darren Danis (a3)(9L).
Note: Numbers shown are the distance from winner in lengths.
Winning Margins: Hd, Hd, Lg hd
Owners: Sir Peter Vela
Trainer: Stephen Marsh, Cambridge
Breeding: 3 g Shamexpress-Lycia
Scratched: 5-Missmaising, 10-Shipshape, 12-Jewelkeeper.
SUB: 11 Markle 
Winners Time: 1:11.13

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RACE INFO

  • Flat Rating: 63 
  • Steeple Rating: 0 
  • Hurdle Rating: 0 
  • Current Gear:
    • Approved Plates
    • Lugging Bit
    • Tongue Tie

HORSE DETAILS

3YO Bay Gelding

  • Owner: Sir Peter Vela & Miss Danielle Johnson
  • Breeder: Pencarrow Thoroughbreds Ltd

 

She is clearly listed as an owner...can we stop this now...thanks.

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10 hours ago, Red Rum said:

I see a  trainer won a Harley, would the unwritten rule in this instance  be that he or she gives the owner a sling , now if horse sold on at profit  or horse wins , a little bit of a treat should go the stable and stable staff way . If owner provided the horse and paid bills wouldn't this be fair to share the love the other way in this instance ? 

At least give them the handlebars

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41 minutes ago, puha said:

No they will be paying to fill it up :) joking

DE said it was the best Harley he had ever seen , he said it Breezed up real nice, was all quality and could see it go on to win a Karaka Million at 2 then as a race like the Diamond Stakes or Sires Produce and train on as a 3yo to win a 2000 Guineas , he reckons its a real Derby type! Couldn't believe how cheap it was as well.

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Stephen Marsh on Des Coppins’s Trackside Radio interview yesterday confirmed that Danielle owns 50% of Balios. Surprised that this name was able to be registered as a stallion called Balios stood in Taranaki in the 1970’s. A very moderate sire bred in England in 1968 by Ballymoss out of Edie Kelly.

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So is a jockey allowed to unofficially own half a horse, not tell NZTR, ride another horse in the same race and strongarm their mount so the one they own wins? Are they allowed to do any of those things (for example the first one, which apparently was the case with Balios; while the ownership info on LoveRacing includes Danielle now, it didn't a few days ago)?

The correct (as far as we know; who's to say there aren't more owners of Balios that no-one has accidentally mentioned on Trackside?) info is there for Balios now. How many other horses does Danielle kinda-sorta-own that NZTR/the betting public don't know about? How many other horses does Sir Peter Vela secretly co-own with other jockeys? If you don't need to let NZTR know the true ownership details of a horse, how many people who have been warned off are still secret owners?

I have no beef with any of the people involved in this situation. I've had nothing to do with any of them (except as a punter). But having secret owners, and jockeys with secret motives the betting public don't know about, looks dodgy as ****.

I don't think "It's sorted now, let's move on" is the right approach. It's not so much that we have bigger fish to fry, it's that this is part of the same stinking, rotting fish that is NZTR's ongoing incompetence. It's yet another example from NZTR's court that will further erode punter confidence in NZ thoroughbred racing, further erode turnover, and further erode stakes.

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You are all getting up in arms over nothing...she clearly stated, oh its good to be on the there side of the fence or words to that effect once it won...you are all making something, or trying to out of nothing.

And just because one person says it was not on the site before the race, does anyone have proof of that??? From what I saw Sunday it was clearly there for all to see....for those who wish to see that is.

As Chris said she does not even have to put her name in the book...thats the rules... not her rules.

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7 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

 

And just because one person says it was not on the site before the race, does anyone have proof of that??? From what I saw Sunday it was clearly there for all to see....for those who wish to see that is.

You must have had the asian translation version of NZTR Scooby. In little old NZ the full ownership was not on the site on Sunday at any time.I was very careful in checking TAB, NZTR sites before the initial posting.

 

( BTW, is anybody else ready to puke over the lazy advertising gimmick of Love Racing, Love Golf, Love the Supercity etc etc?)

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14 minutes ago, Chris Wood said:

NZ Racing has all the official ownership recorded, you state on the forms what names you want to have disclosed in the Racebook. 

Some people don’t want their names in the book, is that a sin?

Not talking about the Racebook Chris, only the official NZTR website, and not in this instance talking about 'average Joe". Perhaps ALL ownership details should be suppressed, with restricted access, just like re-vamped motor vehicle ownership model which used to allow easy disclosure via a post office enquiry.

Obviously that scenario would not be a goer in racing with jockeys, trainers, jockey's agents and other racing industry affiliates involved in ownership--imagine the scope for a bit of fiddly-diddly. Perception again and punter confidence.

Must admit though that for the big ownership players it is a great ploy to have a talented jockey in the ownership of one or more of your horses (if they are willing) as you have your preferred jockey locked in.

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1 hour ago, Chris Wood said:

NZ Racing has all the official ownership recorded, you state on the forms what names you want to have disclosed in the Racebook. 

Some people don’t want their names in the book, is that a sin?

Jockey X rode both Horse A and Horse B at their last starts. Today he's riding Horse B. Can punters assume that it is because he/his advisors think Horse B has the best chance of winning and then factor that into their punting? Or do we have to wonder if maybe he owns a piece of Horse B and we don't know about it?

Punting is an information game. You take a stack of information, interpret it your own way, and try to predict future events. The less information you have, the less likely you are to predict the future correctly. The less likely you are to predict the future correctly, the less likely you are to bet.

No-one's saying that Danielle is a crook or anything. She appears to have followed the rules (IANAL). But if the rules allow for jockeys (or anyone, really) to have hidden interests in horses, the rules suck.

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