RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
tim vince

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Fartoomuch and Iraklis, you are both obviously Mark Purdon fans and I presume you have a share of a horse or two in his stable, you would therefore find it very difficult to see things from the other side. We are each entitled to our opinions and I'll stick to mine

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:rcfe-smile:  Stables mate, yes, I am an AllStars fan, no, I do not have horses in their stable (bloody wish I could), so seein things from the other side so to speak is not a problem for me at all. Yes your entitled to your opinions, as are we all, fair enough, I just feel however that you have failed to prove that the very points, you have brought up, can be attributed to AllStars success alone; most of your points to my mind fall in the 'gripes in general basket' with a healthy dose of very thinly veiled envy (for want of better word, and I don't blame you), hey not critizin! just sayin, no biggie there.....

However, competition in business as in Harness happens, and there is always one Company out there who comes along and just competes better, its just the way it goes, progression don't yuh just love it.....

 

Cheers Iraklis

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Your comments appear very close to criticism to me. Words like envy and gripes are not complements. I don't think any points I make would make an impression on you as you seem to have a closed mind on the subject. 

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19 hours ago, Stables said:

Now one trainer has all the owners and they now just have shares in horses as it is no longer affordable to have a horse in training by yourself. The stakes for ordinary races are so low that even if you had a horse capable of winning 4 races in a season you would be lucky to break even.

Its factually untrue that AS have all the owners, they do have some of the bigger ones who no doubt have high expectations. But even Kennard said he needed a few big wins as he pays an awful lot of bills in a year or words to that effect.

As for stakes , they are what they are based on NZRB payout structures. More gambling on Harness is the only solution there at this stage but the likes of  Inca is not helping matters

I do not have any horses in training with AS team but tip my hat off to them for their success and professionalism. I might add that im not that comfortable with all the envy and misinformation out there about such successes but again that's just my thought. The latest i have read from another site was'

" as I have stated before, I believe the stable are ahead of the game when it comes to the use of performance enhancers . I believe that is an integral part of their success. "

Re above which must be pretty close to defamatory, why is that they get tested more often than not yet they return no positives. others use the same vet so that cant be it and  zzzzzzzzzzzzz the list goes on

As i replied to your earlier post "your opinion which you are perfectly entitled to put forward stables " I was not bagging you just acknowledging your right to have your opinion whilst  presenting a summary of how i see things and why horses are exported.

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Stables Stables Stables, I have already stated I am not havin a go, right! now give over already, I am not critizin you, I am makin an observation re your points! just like your not critizin AllStars we are debatin :rcfe-smile: read your own post for cryin out loud, what would you call it when your tryin to attribute all those points; and you still have not stated how those things you pointed to are solely down to AllStars bein a success at what they do, for example:

'The stakes for ordinary races are so low that even if you had a horse capable of winning 4 races in a season you would be lucky to break even' or 'If a Purdon horse goes to the front, as happens in most races they contest, no one dares to try and take the lead off them, except one of his stablemates and then the lead is given up without contest' or ' Young trainers struggle to buy horses and establish a training  establishment due to the huge cost involved. Without the support of a parent in the game or a wealthy sponsor it is well nigh impossible'

I was merely tryin to point out and or ask how are these issues you point to, are due to the success of AllStars....do AllStars set the Stakes for the races your referring to? (thought they were set by HRNZ/NZRB) do AllStars dictate to rival trainers and drivers? (ahh from what I hear most trainers & drivers dictate their own terms in a race) do AllStars set the costs for settin up your own stable? (there are always costs in settin up any business) and I really don't think MarkP should feel anyway culpable for comin from a great Harness bloodline :rcfe-smile: just tryin to get you to see how the points in your post looks to someone on the outside.....like gripes in general, with as I said an amount of envy, no biggie, I don't blame yuh! okay......and as someone said to me in RaceCafe once, 'It's great to have a good rant' every now and then LOL

 

Cheers Iraklis

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If you read my posts, you will see that I have not blamed All Stars for the current situation. What has occured is the result of one stable completely dominating the harness racing scene, with turnovers going down due to the increased dominance of hot favourites and consequently the resultant inability of clubs to increase stakes. This dominance is not good for the industry as is a monopoly is bad for any industry. It destroys competition as it gains in strength and sucks the live blood out. I don't Mark Purdon, he is making hay while the sun shines but there are dark clouds on the horizon. I blame the administrators who must see the direction harness racing is heading and have sat on their hands and done nothing, They have tinkered with the handicapping and achieved nothing but a huge glut of horses in the one win grade who find it hard to win another because they are racing  4 and 5 win horses due to the wide range of ratings that clubs use to make up their fields. As I have said before the only solution is to increase stakes for the lower class of horse by reducing stakes for horses racing in the superior classes, it is not socialism as stated by Fartoomuch but  a redistribution of funds in order to achieve the continuance of the industry

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Spankem being able to race as a C1 in Australia isn't a reflection of the flaws in our system, but rather the flaws in the Australian system. 
If you own eight start, $6000 earning, C1 horse "Getting Spanked" in Australia are you happy to be racing 6 win, $277,000 earning, Group 1 winner Spankem?

To summarise
I will not be a happy participant if NZ moves to have $200,000+ earners rated as R40-55 to negate the advantages of overseas systems, and thus reducing the demand for our horses.
A stake money increase would be nice, but in the current environment finding the money to increase stakes is extremely difficult.
 

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Stables, nah mate I haven't misread your post at all, but if that is so who might 'This dominating stable' (your words) be, and who I might ask would you consider to be in control of that 'Stable'...... ' What has occured is the result of one stable completely dominating the harness racing scene, with turnovers going down due to the increased dominance of hot favourites' (who might that one stable be in this reference?) and this ' This dominance is not good for the industry as is a monopoly is bad for any industry. It destroys competition as it gains in strength and sucks the live blood out' (and who might you be referencing in all that)......and why reference this: 'If a Purdon horse goes to the front, as happens in most races they contest, no one dares to try and take the lead off them, except one of his stablemates and then the lead is given up without contest. It was refreshing to see Tiger Tara's driver attack Purdon's horse in the cup as no New Zealand driver would have the balls to take on a Purdon horse' (that looks like blame of an accusatory nature to me) and 'At the yearling sales when Purdon is bidding on a horse very few dare to bid against him and many a horse goes to his stable at a price well below its true value' and this 'His success is incredible but the effect of this success is that the rest of the industry are suffering from a slow strangulation (that looks like blame to me), and 'Mark had 2 main helpers to get him self established, the financial assistance of his father and the reputation of the Purdon name. In addition he had huge financial assistance from John Seaton. These factors plus his own natural ability made it easy for him to rise to the top (that looks like envy/jealousy to me), but might I add, any other trainer out there could do the same with the right attitude, Mark went out there and simply put 'got er done!!!' yeh boy......so, sorry tell me again how I have misread your original post.......

Take you point on the stakes, but as to the handicapping system, by what TimV said at start of thread 'I thought we don't got one' least ways one that works :rcfe-smile:

 

Cheers Iraklis

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1 hour ago, Stables said:

If you read my posts, you will see that I have not blamed All Stars for the current situation. What has occured is the result of one stable completely dominating the harness racing scene, with turnovers going down due to the increased dominance of hot favourites and consequently the resultant inability of clubs to increase stakes. This dominance is not good for the industry as is a monopoly is bad for any industry. It destroys competition as it gains in strength and sucks the live blood out. I don't Mark Purdon, he is making hay while the sun shines but there are dark clouds on the horizon. I blame the administrators who must see the direction harness racing is heading and have sat on their hands and done nothing, They have tinkered with the handicapping and achieved nothing but a huge glut of horses in the one win grade who find it hard to win another because they are racing  4 and 5 win horses due to the wide range of ratings that clubs use to make up their fields. As I have said before the only solution is to increase stakes for the lower class of horse by reducing stakes for horses racing in the superior classes, it is not socialism as stated by Fartoomuch but  a redistribution of funds in order to achieve the continuance of the industry

A redistribution of money is basically what Socialism is.The idea of dropping the top stakes and putting it into lower grade races is a recipe for even more of the best to be exported and a race to the bottom IMHO

The industry has survived for decades and will continue to do so. Look at the fields for Winton and Rangiora in the weekend.  Auckland and Addington offer more money for those that aspire to try and win more money..

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Iraklis, you've got a closed mind. It so happens that the same things would be said by me if the dominant trainer  was someone else. I am not saying these things out of envy,  I have bred and raced many horses that have competed successfully at the top level. including one trained by Mark Purdon. All I am saying is that this dominance will result in the Industry grounding to a slow but ever closer death. I will have nothing further to say on this subject as we so far have both made our point without resorting to insults. Best regards for your future involvement in harness racing

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21 minutes ago, tim vince said:

I think the high end punters are responsible for some of the turnover going south. 

 

Im agreeing with you 100%. I know of at least  one whose weekly turnover was in the thousands who has not had a bet since Inca arrived.

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Stables mate, quit makin assumptions my mind is far from closed otherwise I would not have bothered to answer and ask the questions I did.....just askin you to back what you say as far as your first post went, point is we all know who the 'dominant trainer/stable is to whom you refer and you mention ref Purdon etc all the way thru, you didn't back yourself and explain the direct relationship, alluded to in that first post, hey fine by me.....all good :rcfe-smile: and all the best to you too.....

We in RaceCafe have all heard on numerous occassions, from different folks over the years, how AllStars is so bloody bad for the sport etc etc and they're gunna kill this, kill that, all doom and gloom.....but you know what? I've only ever heard that in here, I hang out down Puke (Alex Park race nights) track watchin trials, workouts etc and talkin to those I know, and the closest I've come to hearin anything even slightly negative, was from a small trainer who said 'I don't even think about AllStars and what they're doin, I know they target this and that, but I have enough to deal with just gettin my own ones sorted, can't be thinkin bout them' same trainer said 'my horses are earnin good enough money with what I'm doin' I asked what about if you end up in the same race as one of theirs, the reply was ' well give as good as we get, we may go down whackin but at least we'll be whackin'  :rcfe-smile:  the one common thread I heard was the handicapping, stakes, and HRNZ don't know what they're doin (sorry HRNZ not my words) and one other trainer statin after I asked about settin up etc 'I wish I had what AllStars have, bloody MarkP is one lucky bugga and if yuh know of bunch of rich buggas to back me can yuh let me know' I said I'd get back to them....when I went down to track and started askin I expected to hear the worst (after seein it on here) but no, one guy however did say 'oh geezuz yuh don't be listenin to any bugga on that RaceCafe, bunch of bleep bleepn idiots' I had to laugh, then was forced to elucidate him, roundly, I might add......sorry forgot to add, that the other thing pissin everyone off is the Inca thing, yeh that was cause for few heated words......

 

Cheers Iraklis

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1 hour ago, Stables said:

Thank you Iraklis and Fartoomuch. I enjoyed the debate

Your welcome and i enjoyed the non confrontational banter but the matter is not closed nor ever will be.Its just one of those topics that seem to divide those interested in the sport

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P

Haha  is he a good bloke. Control what's in front of u don't worry about anyone else..I see how Mike house dominates manawatu doesn't get the grief the all stars do.his domination is much bigger and good on him.found a niche and exploiting it?

Put your balls on the line sign for a few yearlings and hustle and find owners.

Or u could just say my lot is training average horses not too much stress .

Either is fine.

 

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