We don't have a rating system.

[tim vince 985]

As soon as wins are considered it no longer becomes a rating system.more and more examples every week.latest one west boyz gets 10 metres when under the ratings should be on the front.putting conditions on races outside there rating defeats the purpose.recentlly there was a mobile trot programmed at Cambridge  maiden and one win.so it raises the real possibility a rating 55 eligible and a 40 not.the rating system is being hi jacked or those running it aren't  up to the job.lets have one or the other wins or rating .don't mix up the both or it becomes a jumble.but nothing will change.its the handicappers job to rate them .ends there the horses fit into the fields commensurate with their rating.

[tim vince 985]

Other trot has 54 and 55s some on front some on mark.wtf. a South island trainer told me he won't send moderate horses to me coz it seems it's a crime to win 2 in a row.

[Amati Nidol 38]

Respect your opinion Tim.

I have to say I am the other way. My horses race in Southland and Otago. My clear preference is a three-tiered system
Maiden Races
One Win Races
Ratings Races

Can be fairly frustrating having a 12 start 1 win horse that has earned $8000, and you are racing 9+ win horses with $70,000+ in the bank each week. Ignoring the small fields in the South this Saturday, I believe we have the horse population to run that three-tiered system.

[Taku Umanga 194]

11 hours ago, tim vince said:

a South island trainer told me he won't send moderate horses to me coz it seems it's a crime to win 2 in a row.

Depends where you win - Manawatu seems to get you 6 points with handicapper discretion applied.

[Rusty 575]

We do have a ratings system, just a buggered one. 

 

[eljay 1,719]

The evil word - "Discetion"

 

Of course it's the Officials discretion, not the owners/trainers discretion.

 

Then after applying a discretion they then apply at preferential condition also.

[Taku Umanga 194]

4 hours ago, Rusty said:

We do have a ratings system, just a buggered one. 

 

Bastardised is a better word.  Rating plus win concession, rating plus $$ earned concession, rating plus JD concession to get ineligible horses into a field ..... yet they are reluctant to grant rating concessions so that more JD's actually get to drive amongst the seniors - handicapper discretion is too inconsistent for mine.

[tim vince 985]

Still can't figure how horses on the same rating are given different handicaps.if u are on the same handicap at golf one doesn't  tee it off on front of the other..

[Sickopunter 403]

19 hours ago, Amati Nidol said:

Respect your opinion Tim.

I have to say I am the other way. My horses race in Southland and Otago. My clear preference is a three-tiered system
Maiden Races
One Win Races
Ratings Races

Can be fairly frustrating having a 12 start 1 win horse that has earned $8000, and you are racing 9+ win horses with $70,000+ in the bank each week. Ignoring the small fields in the South this Saturday, I believe we have the horse population to run that three-tiered system.

How do they have 70 in the bank if they’ve taken 5 more years to get it?

Do the maths for the owners.

[what a post 811]

any rating system in the north island will always attract its critics because you just don't have enough horses, Simple as that. Thus some will always be placed in races where they are at a disadvantage..   And you don't have enough horses because you don't have enough small time owner/trainers.   And  while declining interest in the sport and the younger generation losing a connection with the horse are obvious factors,another of the reasons for that is many were driven out of the game as they got sick of the previous system which unfairly advantaged the better 2 & 3  year olds by way of penalty free wins. 

As to the answer.  The only way is to have more participants, easily accessible training facilities for everyone and a greater pool of horses. There also needs to be a change of attitude from some. This not having amateur races at Auckland is farcical. In my view it is an area which has potential for greater participation, especially in the owner and trainer side of it, however  once again you have to provide them with access to training facilities and horses.

The training facility and pool of horses must not be run by partisan interest groups.

As an example I was speaking to a bloke the other day who was telling me he had just recently spoken to those who run a  once a year  south island meeting at their racecourse  ,and has been named as for possible closure. He had asked if he could train a couple of horses there. The answer was no,we are not interested in having anyone new train on their track.  I had told him he would be wasting his time. And then they go and moan how they recently spent large amounts of money on their track to get there meeting back.    groups like that who openly discourage participation exist in many places.

[tim vince 985]

3 tier might be okay.could live with that.but at present we have rating system that is not being enacted.i just want a consistent policy so all trainers and owners deserve that.

[what a post 811]

,Its easy enough to see where your coming from,however its just as easy to see why they have handicapped your horse off 10m.

Its consistency you and everyone is looking for. Earlier reference  by amati referred to 1 win horses  running off level marks with horses who had won several races with similar ratings, due to drop backs. It could be argued in races like that they could place the latter off 10m like they did at Auckland.   Ive never worked out why they don't use preferential barrier draws in some races from  a stand.  I think the way to appease people either way is to advertise  the possible race conditions in their programing , so people know what they may get when the fields are published..

[tim vince 985]

not my horse hahaha

[Fartoomuch 1,376]

Heres some food for thought

"Reflecting on the Inter Dominions, Natalie is amazed that the handicapping system has resulted in Spankem going into the Inter Dominions as a C1 HORSE in spite of winning the Kaikoura Cup and other feature races.

“It is just ridiculous. If I wanted I could take him down the road and run him in a C3 race during the week. That is just nonsense”

Natalie’s thoughts underline the crisis growing in New Zealand with a flood of exports to Australia.

“If you have a horse of his calibre and he can come over here with that rating you can understand the flood of sales. But it is not doing our racing any good at all. To me the whole system seems flawed. They don’t seem to want to retain good horses”

Natalie’s comments come as the Racing Board reports a 20 per cent drop in harness race betting this season so far. Food for thought,

Natalie was programmed to return to New Zealand to drive in the Premier meeting at Auckland on Friday. However that is not definite at this stage and will revolve around a conversation with Mark during the week."

[Taku Umanga 194]

2 hours ago, Fartoomuch said:

Natalie’s comments come as the Racing Board reports a 20 per cent drop in harness race betting this season so far. Food for thought,

I doubt that this is entirely the fault of the rating system ..... public perception of harness racing seems to be at all time low - I wonder why that may be ..... perhaps it is "fix-able"?

[Fartoomuch 1,376]

“If you have a horse of his calibre and he can come over here with that rating you can understand the flood of sales. But it is not doing our racing any good at all. To me the whole system seems flawed. They don’t seem to want to retain good horses”

But who at HRNZ is going to do anything about it, if you dont bother to take heed of the best in the business and they are worried about horse losses then things can only go one way. A lot of those who departed here a while back moaned about AS killing the game and forcing owners to sell which of course was obviously  nonsense.

[Stables 577]

Why is that nonsense?

[Fartoomuch 1,376]

1 hour ago, Stables said:

Why is that nonsense?

Because its patently untrue.  They sell because of a variety of reasons, hopeless handicapping system,reached their mark, trainer likes 10% and last but not least poor stakes and leadership. Kiwisin both major codes have always been sellers. The AS nonsense is akin to everyone selling rather than taking on Te Akau or Baker -Foresman.

[Iraklis 2,231]

Most people I know in Harness racing, and they range from across the Owner, Trainer, Breeder ranks have all said at one time or another, they sold because of the 'good money on offer' for their horse, and the fact they can 'race in aus off better marks' there, their horse won't get 'killed racin off hard marks' all the time like here, all of them have mentioned how hard the racin is here......not one of em has said 'we don't want to race AllStars' in fact a couple from Puke have said 'they welcome the competition as it allows them to see where their own horses are truly at' and as shown on Fri last, just because Mark P may 'hold all the cards' doesn't necessarily mean its goin to automatically translate into 'AllStars wins all', my friend actually said 'phooey, alot can happen in races at anytime' there are no certainties in racin'.....

AllStars aint gunna kill the sport! but deaf ears and lack of vision will.......

 

Cheers Iraklis

[Stables 577]

In an earlier era the winners were shared around a number of trainers who each had their loyal group of owners, the trainers premiership was shared amongst a large group of trainers and often went right down to the close of the season before it was decided. Group races were also shared amongst a large group of owners. Now one trainer has all the owners and they now just have shares in horses as it is no longer affordable to have a horse in training by yourself. The stakes for ordinary races are so low that even if you had a horse capable of winning 4 races in a season you would be lucky to break even. Now one trainer wins all the group races and quite often fills the first 3 or 4 placings. If a Purdon horse goes to the front, as happens in most races they contest, no one dares to try and take the lead off them, except one of his stablemates and then the lead is given up without contest. It was refreshing to see Tiger Tara's driver attack Purdon's horse in the cup as no New Zealand driver would have the balls to take on a Purdon horse. At the yearling sales when Purdon is bidding on a horse very few dare to bid against him and many a horse goes to his stable at a price well below its true value. Is it any wonder that people are selling their horses to Australia or the USA and not buying replacements. Young trainers struggle to buy horses and establish a training  establishment due to the huge cost involved. Without the support of a parent in the game or a wealthy sponsor it is well nigh impossible. None of these things are caused by the rating system as it has been changed so many times and each new system has ended up with the same result. The main problem is the concentration of money into 2 and 3 year old racing and the low stakes for ordinary class races. Before I get attacked by the AS brigade I would like to state that this is not an attack on Mark Purdon and his team. I admire Marks success and regard him as the best trainer I have seen. Unless things change however I cannot see the industry surviving for much longer and then Mark Purdon will just have to race his own horses against each other. In fact in many races this is almost happening already

[lamour 673]

I still believe the main problem is the rating system.  It is meant to keep like racing with like but is failing miserably at the top end.

If we stick with a system where horses get re assessed into a grade where they are not competitive of course they are going to be sold.

We need a handicapping system where horses can stay in a rating band they are competitive in,  not dominant but competitive.   That is simply not happening with this system.

I feel that apart from a bit of tinkering around the edges all the new system has done is change the word Class to the word RATING.  No substantial change has addressed the faults of the old system.

[Iraklis 2,231]

Stables mate, I respect what you have said to a point, but when someone starts with 'in an earlier era', or back in the old days, there is the inevitable comparisons to an era, gone! or on it's way out, and the lamenting of how things were done then, and, and, and, so on.....change happens, and mate you know what, it is now the future and Harness Racing is still here only now it's a different beast (for want of better word) and AllStars Racing is a much sort after stable for those who want their horse trained by the best in the business, because they regularly get results! hence they are able to bid for the stock they want, and race the way they want etc, but it aint their fault people dont bid against them or don't want to challenge them in a race etc that's just the measure of the respect they have for AllStars in general; Mark's talent for selectin the right stock for their needs, and both he and Nats trainin/drivin capabilities what a lethal combination, and good on them for makin the most of what they have.

Far from killin the sport they are the catalyst for those out there, who, dang it want to compete, and to survive they will! and, they are, alot have lifted their game, the trainer with the most horses entered in the Cup this year was who? wasn't AllStars, when an owner says 'I'm selling to aus its too hard racing the marks here' what do you think they mean? and no it aint MarkP they are talkin about; I get that you have gripes but venture to ask, alot of those gripes, really, how are they a problem of AllStars and their success ie. the young trainers strugglin to buy horses, findin it to costly to get established, or below priced horses goin to AllStars barn; ahh any young trainer would have to do what Mark did when he first started out as did any trainer had to do, yuh do what yuh gotta do! go get the sponsor, wealthy parent whomever on board work yuh proverbial ass off.....and by the way don't you think its bit pointless to sell overseas specially to aus, AllStars race there too, just sayin.....

 

Cheers Iraklis

[Stables 577]

If you read my comments correctly Iraklis you would have seen that I was not blaming Mark P. I was just describing what the situation is like for everyone but Mark Purdon. His success is incredible but the effect of this success is that the rest of the industry are suffering from a slow strangulation. Mark had 2 main helpers to get him self established, the financial assistance of his father and the reputation of the Purdon name. In addition he had huge financial assistance from John Seaton. These factors plus his own natural ability made it easy for him to rise to the top. Very few other trainers have such assistance from families and friends. Mark has established a super market system where huge numbers of horses are processed, those with ability rise to the top, the rest are discarded. Many of those discarded horses have the ability to win races but not Group or classic races. Other trainers could be likened to the corner dairy struggling to survive with the little they've got. This situation is not a recipe for a successful industry and could well be the cause for the situation we find ourselves in at the moment with the Inca investigation as many people struggle to make ends meet. Turnover on harness racing is down 20% this season and if we continue to decline at that level then most of those so called corner dairy trainers will have to close up shop. If we look at reducing the stake levels for  the many group races and redistribute these funds to the lower rating classes there would be a huge boost in stakes for the lessor grade races without too much damage to the higher tier of racing. For example would it make any difference to the quality of the field if the NZ Cup was worth $500,000 instead of $800,000. It would simply mean that Mark Purdon would earn less and there would be enough left to provide a liveable wage for the remaining trainers

[Fartoomuch 1,376]

1 hour ago, Stables said:

If you read my comments correctly Iraklis you would have seen that I was not blaming Mark P. I was just describing what the situation is like for everyone but Mark Purdon. His success is incredible but the effect of this success is that the rest of the industry are suffering from a slow strangulation. Mark had 2 main helpers to get him self established, the financial assistance of his father and the reputation of the Purdon name. In addition he had huge financial assistance from John Seaton. These factors plus his own natural ability made it easy for him to rise to the top. Very few other trainers have such assistance from families and friends. Mark has established a super market system where huge numbers of horses are processed, those with ability rise to the top, the rest are discarded. Many of those discarded horses have the ability to win races but not Group or classic races. Other trainers could be likened to the corner dairy struggling to survive with the little they've got. This situation is not a recipe for a successful industry and could well be the cause for the situation we find ourselves in at the moment with the Inca investigation as many people struggle to make ends meet. Turnover on harness racing is down 20% this season and if we continue to decline at that level then most of those so called corner dairy trainers will have to close up shop. If we look at reducing the stake levels for  the many group races and redistribute these funds to the lower rating classes there would be a huge boost in stakes for the lessor grade races without too much damage to the higher tier of racing. For example would it make any difference to the quality of the field if the NZ Cup was worth $500,000 instead of $800,000. It would simply mean that Mark Purdon would earn less and there would be enough left to provide a liveable wage for the remaining trainers

A very socialist 1970s type post which you are perfectly entitled to put forward stables. You , as Iraklis pointed out long for the so called "good old days". I think we all know they are gone and its a new and evolving world we all live in.

Purdon is many things but his ability to identify yearlings and not pay top dollar is what makes the AS team the best IMHO.

He looks at most of them , tells his owners what he thinks and how much they pay. In most cases from the previous sales i saw his picks and not one was priced at over 75K but plenty in that sale did.You rarely see him sign for yearlings unlike other trainers.

As for other trainers, they are entitled to do whatever they like to succeed as AS team are not stopping them. Just look at how many and how much money R Dunn spent for his clients at the last sales, it was way more than AS clients did so they should be winning everything in the next few seasons based on your theory.

If trainers are not making ends meet then they need to adjust their business operation/model to meet the times or depart. There are plenty of meetings every week where AS  team are not involved and that is where product will continue to be supplied and money made.

[Iraklis 2,231]

Stables, in turn, I read and fully understood it! and in my reply post was tryin to be diplomatic - if you had read my post correctly I didn't say 'you' were blaming Mark! I simply stated it's not Mark's (AllStars fault) all the ills facing the industry today, that aside you may want to re-read your own post its tinged with contradictions all the way through, hey I aint havin a go here, I'm just pickin up on some of the things you've attributed to why AllStars success is 'strangling' our sport.....pickin up on one of your points, yes Mark may have had help at hand but it was help enlisted to do what he needed to do, any other trainer out there can do the same! the kicker is 'his horsemanship' and why should his Purdon name be an issue, hey you can't help what family your born into mate but I have to ask just look at some of the points you have made you'll see what I mean, you seriously can't attribute those issues to AllStars, they aint the big bug bear, they're just showin the way, bless em.....

 

Cheers Iraklis