We're Doomed

Waipa

29 posts in this topic

55 minutes ago, We're Doomed said:

My god, abandonments are becoming so common-place no one even mentions them anymore. Apparently Waipa was abandoned again today, no mention why on the nzracing website, just that Cambridge noms are left open. What happened?

Didn't even look today as a Tuesday , saw meeting abandoned thought brilliant nearly weekend works flown by this week , then shit it is only Tuesday. It's getting to tipping point for me where apart from Chch cup week, Christmas racing, Coast Circuit and GN meeting August iam not bothering too much with our racing , good horses sold , duffers running midweek at poor courses   iam finding it hard to keep  enthused  , Spring Sydney and Melb has spoilt me .

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2 hours ago, Red Rum said:

Didn't even look today as a Tuesday , saw meeting abandoned thought brilliant nearly weekend works flown by this week , then shit it is only Tuesday. It's getting to tipping point for me where apart from Chch cup week, Christmas racing, Coast Circuit and GN meeting August iam not bothering too much with our racing , good horses sold , duffers running midweek at poor courses   iam finding it hard to keep  enthused  , Spring Sydney and Melb has spoilt me .

Would have to agree with your sentiments RR.  I’m afraid the drive to the cross roads is coming closer and to be honest, I don’t see any way forward because NZ industry won’t face the hard facts that the country is a bloodstock trading nation and not a racing nation.  Domestic racing won’t survive...because as you say, quite rightly, there is nothing running around to encourage enthusiasm with the people the Industry needs more than anything else...punters.  

Unless there is a strategy to reconfigure trainers license and charge the trainers of trade horses, expensive usage charges should they use industry facilities to prepare the horses going offshore to Asia, then it will all go by the wayside...

we need these trade horses to go through the system to generate revenue from the TAB...but as I stated to my other half over 10years ago, trading will be the death knell of the NZ domestic racing industry.   The TAB revenue history tells you this...

But where all of this could stop is Winston Peters....but as we know he is in favour of the export industry....but in a racing jurisdiction as small as NZ, you can’t have you cake and eat It too.

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Most of your post is off the mark La Zip, the domestic scenes decline is not as a result of lower  quality stock as you suggest, it’s a victim of the problems not the cause.

The issue is that NZ’s population is uneducated about and doesn’t  care about racing when compared to Australia’s. Racing’s leaders for many years have done a poor job of selling the story when say compared to the Wine industry which equally has negative connotations, it’s fluffy and made fun whereas racing is non existent.

Many participants still have dreams of the 70s and 80s and have failed to evolve and instead it’s been a slow dwindle to now crisis. Relentless stupid decisions by administrators have hastened the decline, ignoring punters and owners at there peril.

Couple that up with the rural community in NZ struggling through declining returns for many a year and you lose one of your natural ownership bases for the NZ industry, shutting down there race tracks will be the death knell for them.

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Supremely ironic that NZTR had only just released it’s Track Management Protocol Plan. This will be another exercise in futility and will not arrest more future abandonments. Decades of grossly under funded track maintenance have lead us to this current situation. I suppose Saundry and his cohorts have to be seen to be doing something!

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19 hours ago, La Zip said:

Would have to agree with your sentiments RR.  I’m afraid the drive to the cross roads is coming closer and to be honest, I don’t see any way forward because NZ industry won’t face the hard facts that the country is a bloodstock trading nation and not a racing nation.  Domestic racing won’t survive...because as you say, quite rightly, there is nothing running around to encourage enthusiasm with the people the Industry needs more than anything else...punters.  

Unless there is a strategy to reconfigure trainers license and charge the trainers of trade horses, expensive usage charges should they use industry facilities to prepare the horses going offshore to Asia, then it will all go by the wayside...

we need these trade horses to go through the system to generate revenue from the TAB...but as I stated to my other half over 10years ago, trading will be the death knell of the NZ domestic racing industry.   The TAB revenue history tells you this...

But where all of this could stop is Winston Peters....but as we know he is in favour of the export industry....but in a racing jurisdiction as small as NZ, you can’t have you cake and eat It too.

Problem is NZ are forced to sell best where UK, Ire and Australia keep best sell the ones below that and the ones below that stay in country ,  race on decent tracks to keep the midweek meetings ticking over for punters with horses moving up and down handicap, with a rating system that's pretty straightforward for punter to follow. The handicappers that go for years keep whole thing ticking over.

Ireland went through a period of decline from mid eighties for about ten years , coincided with Vincent O'Briens career tapering off and in jumping game anything half decent going to UK. The classics in Ireland were in the main cleaned up by UK trainers and a few by Andre Fabre.The jumps trainers couldn't get a look in at Cheltenham and tracks in Ireland were getting  run down. Then came some big tax breaks , Aiden O'Brien , resurgent Coolmore , the genius of Willie Mullins over jumps helped  by big owners like Rich Ricci and JP MacManus,  they kept their best horses at home , the crowds came back and the courses upgraded. Mullins now a big importer of stock from France and a lot of the good ones purchased in Ireland are from point to point field as many were in past  but basically untapped not their superstars from under rules.

 

 

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Quality of horses isn’t the issue. Low stakes, poor tracks, long term failure of the industry to improve and promote leading to a negative image of racing for many is the issue. Throw in horrific management and massive financial wastage at the top (mostly by people who know nothing of and don’t give a shit about racing) with little or no accountability and welcome to the result.

Even when young people do come to the races these days nothing is done to retain them or further their interest as the areas they go to are usually set up as pubs and or nightclubs. 

In the colts and fillies area on Counties Cup day there wasn’t a single TV. 

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Quality of horses is a major issue.  What bring people to the races? What drives the media? Good horses....WINX.

I will admit substandard management is also a huge issue...but if you don’t have quality horses, why go to the races...

As I have said for 10 years +, and what 99% of NZ racing stakeholders are in denial about.....trading has killed domestic racing.

Every other “excuse” is just to cover up the denials....

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Aussie racing gets plenty of people punting and going to racemeetings without Winx. I agree great horses would help but have we even had one since Sunline? Not something we can rely on and with our shitty stakes who in their right mind would keep a great horse here? Hence I see stakes as a far greater issue.

I would also argue trading is the only thing keeping NZ racing alive at all as who would be crazy enough to have a horse/train/etc without a re-sale market? Surely we would have 500 horses nationwide if no-one could ever on sell.

I do respect your thoughts and you have valid reasoning. I'm just the other side of the coin.

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9 hours ago, La Zip said:

Quality of horses is a major issue.  What bring people to the races? What drives the media? Good horses....WINX.

I will admit substandard management is also a huge issue...but if you don’t have quality horses, why go to the races...

As I have said for 10 years +, and what 99% of NZ racing stakeholders are in denial about.....trading has killed domestic racing.

Every other “excuse” is just to cover up the denials....

La Zip, you are 100% correct, trading has killed the domestic market and Asia has destroyed most NZ families.

Broodmares particularly and a lot of Stallions too.

Sadly on Thursday at the RT,R,  I just added another nail to the coffin of my own family by selling a nice colt to Malaysia at cost.

Fuck it were my thoughts at the time, and they haven't changed since.

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22 minutes ago, Patiti said:

On the other hand a lot of very nice pedigreed mares imported not to mention some very good stallions brought in.

Goes both ways.

 

To be fair Patiti those mare and stallion numbers coming in is miniscule in comparison to the number of our horses being exported.    

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13 hours ago, Insider said:

La Zip, you are 100% correct, trading has killed the domestic market and Asia has destroyed most NZ families.

Broodmares particularly and a lot of Stallions too.

Sadly on Thursday at the RT,R,  I just added another nail to the coffin of my own family by selling a nice colt to Malaysia at cost.

Fuck it were my thoughts at the time, and they haven't changed since.

What compounds this problem are 2 issues.

Trading to Asia has killed the value of the Stud book.  As you say Insider, selling a colt to Malaysia will do nothing for your family. And anyone that wants to argue that a win in Singapore, Macau, Malaysia and to a degree Hong Kong enhances your family, go and take a dose of salts.

 Secondly, we sell these horses, in the majority of cases, with no GST payable. And whilst this is a government policy,  it’s actually detrimental to our industry.  We’re asking the Government to see its way clear for funding but we’re sending our assets offshore (tax/levy free) for the benefit of other racing jurisdictions.  The majority of these horses have benefited from NZ industry facilities. As you all say, how many of those with trainers license are dependent on the trading market?  Yet apart from monthly track fees and the personal “benefit” of those trading, what recompense is there for the industry..?   We all complain about the lack of infrastructure and repairs, yet we let those take a benefit without paying.  NZB has made their money,A trainer will take his 10%, a bloodstock agent will take his cut, but where is the benefit for the industry? 

We are selling our assets for no benefit, other than for those directly involved.  Yet we’re all paying....in one way or another.  Primarily these horses using our facilities for,their education And are not being sent to the races, denying the industry TAB revenue.

Im just reading through the list of Holders of A licenses...just noticed 1 who trains in the central district who trials with regularity  but has yet to have a race day starter...another up north who had a nice Group winner a week or so ago, has 25 in work yet only half a dozen for domestic racing...

A bitter pill to swallow, but it maybe time to adjust the status quo...in return for Government assistance we place an “exit” levy on exports to Asia.  These trainers who don’t have a set amount of starters yet have a trade horses, pay a hefty levy for their license. 

Im sure the quality of the NZ reared horse has added value in Asia.... and if they want a continuity of supply, they need to pay. Otherwise the pond will dry up...and as we’re seeing now, breeders are dropping off like flies. What happen then?

Just as an example, The TABs in Australia ask everyone to pay them for putting on the Show via a point of consumption tax.....so this is no different. 

Time to ask hard questions and implement a sustainable system to ensure the industry as a whole benefits, not just a few.

 

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La Zip for years I have advocated for a levy on exported horses. Sadly this is a non starter mainly because our Racing Minister is beholden to the people who funds his Party enough to bump them over the 5% threshold ie the elite breeders and owners cartel. As Winston’s favourite mantra goes- FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL!

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1 hour ago, La Zip said:

As you all say, how many of those with trainers license are dependent on the trading market?  Yet apart from monthly track fees and the personal “benefit” of those trading, what recompense is there for the industry..?   We all complain about the lack of infrastructure and repairs, yet we let those take a benefit without paying.  NZB has made their money,A trainer will take his 10%, a bloodstock agent will take his cut, but where is the benefit for the industry? 

We are selling our assets for no benefit, other than for those directly involved.  Yet we’re all paying....in one way or another.  Primarily these horses using our facilities for,their education And are not being sent to the races, denying the industry TAB revenue.

Im just reading through the list of Holders of A licenses...just noticed 1 who trains in the central district who trials with regularity  but has yet to have a race day starter...another up north who had a nice Group winner a week or so ago, has 25 in work yet only half a dozen for domestic racing...

 

I see you are still barking up the wrong tree La Zip, what you are suggesting will not make a blind bit of difference to the survival of NZ Racing. What it will in fact do is drive those who still race a few and sell the rest even quicker out of the game and exasperate the problem.

Those people above whom you state do not recompense the industry, are providing employment for stable hands, trackwork riders, admin staff, facilities staff, vets, feed merchants, farriers and so on, plus paying fees all over the place.  Its a bloody long bow to state they are not recompensing the industry in some way.

As I stated in my above post, you are focusing on a victim of the problem rather than the cause.

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Why should owners who invest in the industry, get lucky on their investment have to pay a levy, you have to be joking.

Will they get reimbursed with the 5 that weren’t any good?

As Barry says, they are supporting the livelihoods of many in one way or the other, and you want to penalise them?

 

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1 hour ago, Chris Wood said:

Why should owners who invest in the industry, get lucky on their investment have to pay a levy, you have to be joking.

Will they get reimbursed with the 5 that weren’t any good?

As Barry says, they are supporting the livelihoods of many in one way or the other, and you want to penalise them?

 

Chris, I think you're a pretty good trainer...but on this issue you are way too close to be objective ...

Absolutely have to pay a levy...its called capital gains tax....and what I'm suggesting is this money not go into government coffers but into the racing industry - infrastructure and prizemoney because the "sold" individual is not going to have the opportunity to generate those funds for the industry that educated him. in fact there wont be enough funds generated by the POC tax to even cover half the prizemoney or infrastructure upgrades necessary to keep the industry sustainable...

And Chris, I own plenty...and I find it difficult to reconcile why I've kept going in NZ but I've now made a decision to remove all my horses...all 14 of them to Australia. Because in the big scheme of things, the trading side of the industry has had it too good for too long and has contributed to the unhealthy state the NZ domestic racing industry is in. I don't consider the argument re livelihoods and peripherals sufficiently compelling enough to think that trading is beneficial for the industry. 

if it had been strategised around 10 to 15 years ago, I don't think the industry would be at the stage its at...and its now too late...in fact, its gone past sunset.  As we've seen over the past few months....WP has given himself an out...he gave everyone the opportunity to get behind the Messara report but no, there has been too much friction and disagreement...and now he can say "well I did give you an opportunity but you've blown it"....and do you think Jacinta will stump up sufficient funds to get things rolling?  I strongly doubt it.  WP had to appear to appease his benefactors .... 

If the New Zealand owners association, trainers association and the breeders came together to drive the industry things may have been different...but no, not in NZ.  Too many individual agendas take precedence...as a combined force you could have made Government sit up and listen...but no, you let the Nationals ramble though 9 years of government without even a squeal...

NZ is too small to have both a trading industry and domestic racing...because this is what we have now....you all need to make a choice - either become 100% breeding/trading or tax exports for the benefit of a healthy domestic racing industry...you can't have your cake and eat it too!

In closing I've left the most important issue till last. To those who sell their animals without any thoughts for their welfare, they will have bad karma ....those who do give a dam, know where I'm coming from.  I find homes for mine..and those that can't be rehomed, I pay up for.  Traders who sell without a conscience to Singapore, Malaysia, Macau without a repatriation clause  .... well what can I wish for them?  I hope their next life is happy and most importantly,  profitable....yeah, right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, La Zip said:

Chris, I think you're a pretty good trainer...but on this issue you are way too close to be objective ...

Absolutely have to pay a levy...its called capital gains tax....and what I'm suggesting is this money not go into government coffers but into the racing industry - infrastructure and prizemoney because the "sold" individual is not going to have the opportunity to generate those funds for the industry that educated him. in fact there wont be enough funds generated by the POC tax to even cover half the prizemoney or infrastructure upgrades necessary to keep the industry sustainable...

And Chris, I own plenty...and I find it difficult to reconcile why I've kept going in NZ but I've now made a decision to remove all my horses...all 14 of them to Australia. Because in the big scheme of things, the trading side of the industry has had it too good for too long and has contributed to the unhealthy state the NZ domestic racing industry is in. I don't consider the argument re livelihoods and peripherals sufficiently compelling enough to think that trading is beneficial for the industry. 

if it had been strategised around 10 to 15 years ago, I don't think the industry would be at the stage its at...and its now too late...in fact, its gone past sunset.  As we've seen over the past few months....WP has given himself an out...he gave everyone the opportunity to get behind the Messara report but no, there has been too much friction and disagreement...and now he can say "well I did give you an opportunity but you've blown it"....and do you think Jacinta will stump up sufficient funds to get things rolling?  I strongly doubt it.  WP had to appear to appease his benefactors .... 

If the New Zealand owners association, trainers association and the breeders came together to drive the industry things may have been different...but no, not in NZ.  Too many individual agendas take precedence...as a combined force you could have made Government sit up and listen...but no, you let the Nationals ramble though 9 years of government without even a squeal...

NZ is too small to have both a trading industry and domestic racing...because this is what we have now....you all need to make a choice - either become 100% breeding/trading or tax exports for the benefit of a healthy domestic racing industry...you can't have your cake and eat it too!

In closing I've left the most important issue till last. To those who sell their animals without any thoughts for their welfare, they will have bad karma ....those who do give a dam, know where I'm coming from.  I find homes for mine..and those that can't be rehomed, I pay up for.  Traders who sell without a conscience to Singapore, Malaysia, Macau without a repatriation clause  .... well what can I wish for them?  I hope their next life is happy and most importantly,  profitable....yeah, right.

Must admit LZ ,  the last paragraph is something I as a punter but more importantly as a racing fan  have a pang of guilt watching Singapore racing , I don't bother watching that utter rubbish sand dune crap  from Korea. Fact is there is no retirement life for most up there, Japan same for most , if Ferdinand didn't get a decent home the horse finishing last at Kawasaki on Tuesday nights isn't much of a show.Beautiful animals but brutal business at times , life's harsh but good on you for putting some money considerations aside and looking after the lifetime care of  horses you sell. 

Likes of Colchester looked a handy horse in South Island , has ended up in Singapore via HK , I could have ran round Kranji quicker that him last week.

I don't know but with a good few of these horses not good enough for sale from NZ ,   are owners forced to discard them  too quickly and move on to next when if there was a decent programme for lower grade horses here they would find  their level and move up and down grades earning a bit to cover something towards costs with chance improving if they fnd  right trainer that suits them   but with how things are it's too expensive to bother keeping on with them. Bottom ranks HK and Singapore filled with these types. Some of those class 5 gallopers in Singapore as poor quality of racehorse you would struggle to find  but keep bumping round Kranji chipping away at owners billls keeping turnover going. These meetings here  midweek sometimes  7 maiden races  a turnoff  , I'd  rather a rating 65 with loads form to nut out.

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13 hours ago, La Zip said:

 

In closing I've left the most important issue till last. To those who sell their animals without any thoughts for their welfare, they will have bad karma ....those who do give a dam, know where I'm coming from.  I find homes for mine..and those that can't be rehomed, I pay up for.  Traders who sell without a conscience to Singapore, Malaysia, Macau without a repatriation clause  .... well what can I wish for them?  I hope their next life is happy and most importantly,  profitable....yeah, right.

 

OMG are you for bloody real La Zip, you must live you your own little bubble time warp thingy. Read below the reality of what happens in Australia.

There are two horse abattoirs in Australia (Peterborough in SA and Caboolture in QLD). Approximately 2,000 tonnes of horse meat is exported from Australia for human consumption in Japan and Europe annually (ABS figures). Over 40000 horses per year are killed in this way in Australia

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Reality is what you live Barry B, you don't vote Labour, but you got a Labour Gov......go figure.......if you look at the various racing jurisdictions here in Oz, you will find every race programmed has a welfare component attached, in VIC these amounts are substantial, as too, NSW.......here in QLD they are to begin with the welfare to bring into line with other states......welfare of the thoroughbred is paramount, the standardbred code used to be horrific, they have lifted their game.

I hate live export, not the actual act as I eat meat, but the cruelty involved of weeks at sea in horrible heat, so fix that and the fools at the other end that kill the animal in the cruelest of fashion and live export becomes viable......will it happen?...no, these analogies are important as you don't seem to get it.......I deplore people that knowingly, knowingly send their horses to a poor life, or should I say end.....for their own monetary gain, upgrade the Range Rover, pay the private school fees , overseas holidays, bigger house.......so please don't throw these idiotic comparisons BarryB......we also have abattoirs here for feral camels, feral horses, and goats......you see, there are hundreds of thousands of these animals, and it's like ivory BarryB.....if we educated the end user in ASIA to not value ivory for their own sick ideology then the Rhino would not be endangered and/or the magical, mystical Elephants.......educate the idiots that value horse meat and same results.....but I stand by my posts, or the bubble you mention, I don't put my bank balance in front of my love and compassion for the horses I earned a living from, or not in NZ...as that's an oxymoron...isn't it?

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You silly Lady, thousands of the horses are colts & fillies that are surplus bred going to the factory, they are not feral.

They are wastage that the racing industry doesnt want in Australia.

Keep burying your head in the sand and read and see what you too, some of us will live in reality.

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