CosmicBlackie

Race Fields Amendment Bill withdrawn

57 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Contentious said:

waving a 'big stick'at a broken industry will not fix it!

Racing will not survive in NZ without the support of rural folk as there are far too many other options for the city folk.

 

So why does it survive and thrive in Australia then???

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10 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

Lets look at it from the other side of the argument.

Lets say the club refuses to give up its asset of the club, just say. 

They have their dates removed so they cant race anymore, is that what they really want??? What if the powers that be said ok you dont want to work with us you cant move to race at another club your racing club would die would it not??? is that the outcome here. Once again just asking questions.

 

Yes, I think that's what will probably happen. The clubs will deregister and give up their dates and retain their assets for the community. This risk was identified in a report by Bell Gully to NZTR way back in 2009.

I quote from that:

Withdrawal from registration Finally, there is a risk that a disgruntled racing club could refuse to exercise its right to conduct race meetings at another racing club’s racecourse as required under a betting licence, and in the face of being required to do so, cancel its registration as a racing club with NZTR. Although there is no explicit right for a racing club to withdraw or cancel its registration as a racing club with NZTR we consider it likely that there is an implicit right to do so on reasonable notice. The effect of such cancellation of registration would be that the racing club would no longer be bound by NZTR’s constitution nor the Racing Act, and arguably could act in any manner it wished, provided it continued to be consistent with its own constitution. It would, however, have no right to run race meetings at any racecourse, nor to receive any funding from NZTR or NZRB.

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7 hours ago, Phantom said:

Well I hate to say I told you so but... what a massive waste of time and effort. The only consolation is that it would NEVER have produced ANYTHING like the ridiculous figures bandied about by Allen and his believers. Race Fields Legislation joins Typhoon and Triple Trio as false  idols.Time to get rid of the snake oil salesmen. Hughes, Allen, and maybe get someone in who has half a clue about the racing or gambling industries or both?

Its comedy stuff of the highest order especially when john Allen was not even informed Winnie was pulling the pin on the RLA

This is a classic tactical move by Peters. There will be some ulterior motive. He may have potentially taken this course  of action to force people to support all the other issues he wants to force upon the clubs. Some might call it blackmail or others may well see it as Winnie saying "My Way or the Highway". Its his modus operandi

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I can't speak for any individual club. It's up to their members who can change their constitutions from racing as a primary purpose or object, but if they can't race in their own communities then it would be a fair call to walk away and leave the bigger clubs that they've been subsidising all these years to their own devices and put their assets to better use in and for their respective communities.

In the meantime Peters has two years probably to write and pass new legislation restructuring the industry. The RB will probably have to substantially reduce distributions in the interim because they have squandered reserves based on pie in the sky figures with respect to anticipated racefields revenue which was never going to happen and stakes will need to revert to something aligned to what race days actually earn, about half what they are now.

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10 minutes ago, Contentious said:

waving a 'big stick'at a broken industry will not fix it!

Racing will not survive in NZ without the support of rural folk as there are far too many other options for the city folk.

 

I don't necessarily agree. The rural folk aren't supporting racing anymore. Their lives have become too busy, too much stress and the rural folk aren't the rural folk of old. I used to part own a bar in Parnell called the Windsor. Very successful in its day and I got out a long time ago. The reason I got out is that the school residential requirements changed. You had to live in an area to get into a specific school. So many of the people living in Parnel, Remuera, Newmarket etc are there to get their kids into school in those areas. Those people don't go out at night so no matter how good the bar was, parents don't like to look after kids with a hangover.

The population of alcohol swillers moved to Ponsonby.

The farming industry has changed. It's corporate farming with young underpaid and under acknowledged workers looking after the dollar now. Not the family that has passed the farm down after generations of toil. It's not machinery that needed people to operate, it's machinery that operates itself.....just look at the robotic milk sheds. It's not a horse  in the side paddock to race any more, its the motor boat or the trip offshore.

We are a changing society and one thing that guys like Contentious doesn't get is that the model has to change. Gambling is now the internet or mobile phone. Gambling is not the rural folk who gamble, its some unanimous offshore parasite that trying to arbitrage the value of any bet, coupled with the odd dinasour coupled with a person that our leaders cannot identify because their systems are being created by people who don't know the game well enough.

A race track is simply a piece of land big enough to cater for a group of horses to run against each other. The racing industry funded the amenities for a time that has since passed us by and we don't have the management and capex to change the monolithic phalanxes called race stands that were not paid for by the communities, but by the respective racing administrations. So all this hocus pocus about who paid for what and who owns what is a misnomer. If the community cared that much they wouldn't be in the shit they are currently in!!!

This needs new thinking. There is a plan that probably needs a lot of tweeks. Who's gong to fight for the piece of pie? I for one will be making a submission.

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5 minutes ago, Leggy said:

And I don't think Feilding is a successful example. Didn't they go from a debt free balance sheet at the time of joining RACE to being owed the value of their assets with little hope of that ever being repaid and added a share of some $8m of debt?

true and they are forced to race on a track that is stuffed.

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7 minutes ago, Berri said:

I don't necessarily agree. The rural folk aren't supporting racing anymore. Their lives have become too busy, too much stress and the rural folk aren't the rural folk of old. I used to part own a bar in Parnell called the Windsor. Very successful in its day and I got out a long time ago. The reason I got out is that the school residential requirements changed. You had to live in an area to get into a specific school. So many of the people living in Parnel, Remuera, Newmarket etc are there to get their kids into school in those areas. Those people don't go out at night so no matter how good the bar was, parents don't like to look after kids with a hangover.

The population of alcohol swillers moved to Ponsonby.

The farming industry has changed. It's corporate farming with young underpaid and under acknowledged workers looking after the dollar now. Not the family that has passed the farm down after generations of toil. It's not machinery that needed people to operate, it's machinery that operates itself.....just look at the robotic milk sheds. It's not a horse  in the side paddock to race any more, its the motor boat or the trip offshore.

We are a changing society and one thing that guys like Contentious doesn't get is that the model has to change. Gambling is now the internet or mobile phone. Gambling is not the rural folk who gamble, its some unanimous offshore parasite that trying to arbitrage the value of any bet, coupled with the odd dinasour coupled with a person that our leaders cannot identify because their systems are being created by people who don't know the game well enough.

A race track is simply a piece of land big enough to cater for a group of horses to run against each other. The racing industry funded the amenities for a time that has since passed us by and we don't have the management and capex to change the monolithic phalanxes called race stands that were not paid for by the communities, but by the respective racing administrations. So all this hocus pocus about who paid for what and who owns what is a misnomer. If the community cared that much they wouldn't be in the shit they are currently in!!!

This needs new thinking. There is a plan that probably needs a lot of tweeks. Who's gong to fight for the piece of pie? I for one will be making a submission.

Yip. Society has changed and I can't see it being considered a good move for small rural communities especially to continue to apply their assets to racing. Just not likely to happen IMHO. And the current political action and Messara report will probably force them to make those decisions.

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21 minutes ago, Contentious said:

true and they are forced to race on a track that is stuffed.

At least they survived... keep digging your heels in and when its all over dont say you all were not given a chance to change...and did not.If racing does not make changes as tough as they are and adapt it will die...thats the choices as I see it.

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11 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

At least they survived... keep digging your heels in and when its all over dont say you all were not given a chance to change...and did not.If racing does not make changes as tough as they are and adapt it will die...thats the choices as I see it.

don't get me wrong - I agree with your statement but I have yet to see the changes that will guarantee the survival of the industry.

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7 minutes ago, Contentious said:

don't get me wrong - I agree with your statement but I have yet to see the changes that will guarantee the survival of the industry.

No one can guarantee anything these days, but one this is for sure the status quo will lead to one outcome only...do we all really want that???

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From the NZRB's half year year report issued in April their number one stategic initiative was updated as follows.....

. • The introduction of Racefields legislation received strong Parliamentary support following its first reading in Government in August 2017 and its continued progress in conjunction with the Department of Internal Affairs is a key priority.

The CEO's response on Friday was that the CFO needs to start crunching a few numbers. With zero  cash reserves and short term debt of approx $20m to fund a new FOB platform the only variable lever to stop further debt/leaking of funds would appear to be reducing distribution to the codes. Seems to have similarities to Fonterra where, if they don't travel as well as expected, the payout price to farmers reduces. 

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2 hours ago, Leggy said:

I will guarantee something. That is implementing the Messara proposals will lead to the same outcome as the status quo but probably sooner.

So suggest something better not just say oh this wont work that work work and keep on whinging...that does not fix anything what is your suggestion that is so much better than theirs???

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I've done that over and over Scoobs. I'm not whinging, just resigned to watch the inevitable to continue unfolding. Read my post on this morning. I fear it may be too late though. The industry needs to generate revenue in excess of its expenditure and to do that it needs a way better and more competitive wagering product and competitive racing product and that requires decent tracks at affordable sums for starters, not continuing to sit around waiting for more handouts from communities and taxpayers as this report proposes.

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2 hours ago, Leggy said:

I've done that over and over Scoobs. I'm not whinging, just resigned to watch the inevitable to continue unfolding. Read my post on  this morning. I fear it may be too late though. The industry needs to generate revenue in excess of its expenditure and to do that it needs a way better and more competitive wagering product and competitive racing product and that requires decent tracks at affordable sums for starters, not continuing to sit around waiting for more handouts from communities and taxpayers as this report proposes.

Why would I waste my time going there.... if you want decent debate about things, with a large number of posters you should have posted it here.....:rcfe-like:

I ask the question again what would you do in place of whats suggested???

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2 hours ago, Leggy said:

I've done that over and over Scoobs. I'm not whinging, just resigned to watch the inevitable to continue unfolding. Read my post on Second rate this morning. I fear it may be too late though. The industry needs to generate revenue in excess of its expenditure and to do that it needs a way better and more competitive wagering product and competitive racing product and that requires decent tracks at affordable sums for starters, not continuing to sit around waiting for more handouts from communities and taxpayers as this report proposes.

Thats the crux of the main issue that racing has been facing for years. Now is the perfect time for the NZRB and its board to assert to Winnie who is running the show. If Allen was to come out next week and say because Race fields legislation is a non goer anymore and we've dipped into reserves to front foot higher stakes then as of now all the  previously announced increases are now rescinded. Further, a comprehensive review of all RBNZ operations will be carried out in order to reduce operating costs by xx % . Yes, what i write is radical but its time for some real solutions cos status quo only leaves the funders in deeper  financial distress in the future.

In doing what he has done Winnie has also given the board ,CEO and staff a free get out of jail card for future use. I can see it now, we have had a very poor year with losses of X which is primarily due to the government changing the rules midstream which we used to set our budgets and payouts to stakeholders

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17 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

Why would I waste my time going there.... if you want decent debate about things, with a large number of posters you should have posted it here.....:rcfe-like:

I ask the question again what would you do in place of whats suggested???

Maybe you wouldn't waste your time but the discussion was going on there and you have reported reading my posts on there before.

Anyway, here it is:

I can't see any possible case for new tracks or AWTs. Doesn't make sense to say that on one hand and close half the ones we have on the other. It's just not affordable. I agree that they need to get off the beneficiary queue and quickly. They've sat around for a decade waiting for the next hand-out, duty relief, pokies, sports betting revenue, overseas racing revenue, etc.etc. and now this proposal asks for more. Now needs at least $10m a year to fix tracks. 2-3 a year. Pick the ones that are closest to being viable and could be reconstructed for $2-4m. Can't think of one in the Waikato. Maybe Avondale/Ruakaka in the north. Foxton or Wanganui in the CD perhaps. Whatever. Yes, reduce races to sustain stakes if necessary, or reduce stakes. There will be fallout of course. More now than there would have been a decade ago. Get stakes back aligned with revenue, probably in a single tier structure. That might be enough to provide for the track fixing. Sort the handicapping system so racing is competitive and the integrity system so it is fair and seen to be so. Get the TAB providing a much more competitive (globally) betting product. Then you're on the way and have to just cross your fingers.

 

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4 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Maybe you wouldn't waste your time but the discussion was going on there and you have reported reading my posts on there before.

Anyway, here it is:

I can't see any possible case for new tracks or AWTs. Doesn't make sense to say that on one hand and close half the ones we have on the other. It's just not affordable. I agree that they need to get off the beneficiary queue and quickly. They've sat around for a decade waiting for the next hand-out, duty relief, pokies, sports betting revenue, overseas racing revenue, etc.etc. and now this proposal asks for more. Now needs at least $10m a year to fix tracks. 2-3 a year. Pick the ones that are closest to being viable and could be reconstructed for $2-4m. Can't think of one in the Waikato. Maybe Avondale/Ruakaka in the north. Foxton or Wanganui in the CD perhaps. Whatever. Yes, reduce races to sustain stakes if necessary, or reduce stakes. There will be fallout of course. More now than there would have been a decade ago. Get stakes back aligned with revenue, probably in a single tier structure. That might be enough to provide for the track fixing. Sort the handicapping system so racing is competitive and the integrity system so it is fair and seen to be so. Get the TAB providing a much more competitive (globally) betting product. Then you're on the way and have to just cross your fingers.

 

I agree , 3 AW tracks are the stuff pipe dreams are made of. It was a while ago but i saw the costs associated with maintaining such tracks and its not cheap. Just because a few of Winnies funders want things should mean nothing but in the age of MMP they mean everything because his party with 7% of the vote is effectively a blackmail party.

For the record my solution would be to spend money on a few tracks that can sustain winter racing due to the nature of the soil structure and climate. Lets say,Oamaru.Foxton Taupo and last but not least Ruakaka. Further rather than spend million on AW stuff , pay trainers and owners to travel horses to these designated winter tracks once they have been remedied of their respective issues. eg A bit of banking at Ruakaka

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21 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Maybe you wouldn't waste your time but the discussion was going on there and you have reported reading my posts on there before.

Anyway, here it is:

I can't see any possible case for new tracks or AWTs. Doesn't make sense to say that on one hand and close half the ones we have on the other. It's just not affordable. I agree that they need to get off the beneficiary queue and quickly. They've sat around for a decade waiting for the next hand-out, duty relief, pokies, sports betting revenue, overseas racing revenue, etc.etc. and now this proposal asks for more. Now needs at least $10m a year to fix tracks. 2-3 a year. Pick the ones that are closest to being viable and could be reconstructed for $2-4m. Can't think of one in the Waikato. Maybe Avondale/Ruakaka in the north. Foxton or Wanganui in the CD perhaps. Whatever. Yes, reduce races to sustain stakes if necessary, or reduce stakes. There will be fallout of course. More now than there would have been a decade ago. Get stakes back aligned with revenue, probably in a single tier structure. That might be enough to provide for the track fixing. Sort the handicapping system so racing is competitive and the integrity system so it is fair and seen to be so. Get the TAB providing a much more competitive (globally) betting product. Then you're on the way and have to just cross your fingers.

 

So what happens to all the horses coming from the hub of Thoroughbreds in NZ..the Waikato??? 

Fact of the matter is NZ racing in winter is a joke, punters hate it, big punters mostly dont bet on NZ anyway we dont even have sectional times FFS, that aside, where would you suggest the bulk of the horses trained in the Waikato are to go if you see no track in the Waikato worth fixing...????

And as for all the rest of the tracks you propose they just keep going on as it is??? I am a little lost with your plan.

 

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34 minutes ago, scooby3051 said:

So what happens to all the horses coming from the hub of Thoroughbreds in NZ..the Waikato??? 

Fact of the matter is NZ racing in winter is a joke, punters hate it, big punters mostly dont bet on NZ anyway we dont even have sectional times FFS, that aside, where would you suggest the bulk of the horses trained in the Waikato are to go if you see no track in the Waikato worth fixing...????

And as for all the rest of the tracks you propose they just keep going on as it is??? I am a little lost with your plan.

 

Agree. A track definitely needs to be brought up to scratch in the Waikato for sure. I'm just not sure which would be the best and most economical option.

And no, I'm not proposing that at all. I agree we need to reduce tracks but first we need to get at least some tracks up to snuff to cope with the racing from the tracks being decommissioned, start building a more attractive (to punters) product that generates more wagering revenue and I don't see how we can afford AWTs as a means of doing that. $20m from the RDF would fix quite a few existing tracks if Winnie could swing it. The industry will have to find the funding to fix the ones in the main centres if they want to keep them.

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7 hours ago, scooby3051 said:

At least they survived... keep digging your heels in and when its all over dont say you all were not given a chance to change...and did not.If racing does not make changes as tough as they are and adapt it will die...thats the choices as I see it.

If your that serious about closing tracks why don’t we start with Trentham?  Apart from two days a year there’s no one oncourse .Facilities are shot .Stuff all horses trained on track .Valueable land etc etc .Prime target for easy funds wouldn’t you think ? 

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41 minutes ago, puha said:

If your that serious about closing tracks why don’t we start with Trentham?  Apart from two days a year there’s no one oncourse .Facilities are shot .Stuff all horses trained on track .Valueable land etc etc .Prime target for easy funds wouldn’t you think ? 

Couldn't agree more...its a dinosaur...but its not Robinson Crusoe there.Everyone needs to be prepared to discuss EVERY option there is its not a about single people now its about the survival of everyone...adapt or die...its happening everywhere.

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