RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
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Messara report... Luv it!

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25 minutes ago, JJ Flash said:

Im hearing on the grapevine that The Right Honorable is struggling with all the feedback and potential implementation of M report. Looks like its not easy for him but im sure his sponsors will assist him where possible.

Not sure that "assist" is the right word JJ....which direction is more important......:rolleyes:

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On 10/2/2018 at 7:54 AM, Chris Wood said:

 

Now we see the Race fields legislation being withdrawn, and our leaders knew nothing about this happening, where is Winston taking us?

 

More to the point Chris, simply 'WHERE IS WINSTON?' Doesn't seem to be able to make a decision of his own. He tacked on to the Messara Report because he had no ideas of his own. It's a great piece of work but it's for Aussie primarily. The same won't work here nor, I think, was it intended to. It's a blueprint to be worked on, cut and pasted to suit the NZ industry. All agree changes are neccessary but all we have now is petitions to keep tracks open rather than make a move towards a better industry which means swallowing a pill or two despite how bitter it may be. Biggest problem I see is, given other betting mediums, we simply don't have the population to support what we now have. Adapt or die. Harsh but true. But don't rely on Winston. He won't be around for long but nor will the racing industry if things stay as they are.

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Blue , i agree change has to come in some form but the closing of tracks  to save the industry costs in my opinion is misleading . Winston clearly stated on a news report a couple of nights ago tracks had to close as nztr can't continue to fund all the tracks in NZ . My understanding and from my knowledge of my local tracks is that these facilities fund all track maintenance and upkeep through track fees and other business ie , Levin jumpouts , grazing cattle , cutting hay etc , i stand to be corrected as i am not privvy to club business . I know when i first turned up at with a horse at Levin , 20 odd years ago , there was no track fees charged to owners as clubs used to get funding off head office on a per horse basis for track up keep . If i am correct and these facilities are self funding what finanacial savings are NZTR going to make . I do know these clubs have in the past applied for grants from other organisations to buy equipment etc . I know NZTR has a track fund but don't know how much if any has been used to help any of the clubs on the short to close , in fact some have already come out and stated that they fund all track maintenance themselves , i'm sure someone can put me straight on any of what i've said above is incorrect . The one thing i'm sure of is if your business model is struggling financially the first thing you look at is your costs and start by tightening your own belt and the one thing that is glaring by it's absence over that last few years is any form of retrenching at head office , lots of new positions created but have seen no evidence of staff numbers dropping . Cheers .

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2 hours ago, nomates said:

Blue , i agree change has to come in some form but the closing of tracks  to save the industry costs in my opinion is misleading . Winston clearly stated on a news report a couple of nights ago tracks had to close as nztr can't continue to fund all the tracks in NZ . My understanding and from my knowledge of my local tracks is that these facilities fund all track maintenance and upkeep through track fees and other business ie , Levin jumpouts , grazing cattle , cutting hay etc , i stand to be corrected as i am not privvy to club business . I know when i first turned up at with a horse at Levin , 20 odd years ago , there was no track fees charged to owners as clubs used to get funding off head office on a per horse basis for track up keep . If i am correct and these facilities are self funding what finanacial savings are NZTR going to make . I do know these clubs have in the past applied for grants from other organisations to buy equipment etc . I know NZTR has a track fund but don't know how much if any has been used to help any of the clubs on the short to close , in fact some have already come out and stated that they fund all track maintenance themselves , i'm sure someone can put me straight on any of what i've said above is incorrect . The one thing i'm sure of is if your business model is struggling financially the first thing you look at is your costs and start by tightening your own belt and the one thing that is glaring by it's absence over that last few years is any form of retrenching at head office , lots of new positions created but have seen no evidence of staff numbers dropping . Cheers .

Great post,  yeah, I heard Winston's comment too,  I think he has been misinformed on this issue.

For sure,  if a club/track can be considered a drag on the industry,  certainly rationalise.  But, as you say,  very many of these clubs have received no funding for years,  and all the maintenace of track and facilities is voluntary.

I understand that NZ racing is insolvent,  but knocking off these small country clubs is not the way to go forward.  Yes,  a slick,  professional model to attract Asian punters and put some money back in the coffers,  certainly...so go and do it.

Smarten up Ellerslie further,  build your blasted allweather at Cambridge or wherever,  and get your funding from the beleaguered Avondale...shame,  good track,  but I am told the facilities would cost huge sums to bring up to modern compliance standards...so start there and get the ball rolling.

When the RB is found to be,  well,  creative,  in their assessments,  send them on their way.

But sacking them now would be counterproductive - who in their right mind would offer to temporarily oversee the cockup that it is?

 

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34 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

Great post,  yeah, I heard Winston's comment too,  I think he has been misinformed on this issue.

For sure,  if a club/track can be considered a drag on the industry,  certainly rationalise.  But, as you say,  very many of these clubs have received no funding for years,  and all the maintenace of track and facilities is voluntary.

I understand that NZ racing is insolvent,  but knocking off these small country clubs is not the way to go forward.  Yes,  a slick,  professional model to attract Asian punters and put some money back in the coffers,  certainly...so go and do it.

Smarten up Ellerslie further,  build your blasted allweather at Cambridge or wherever,  and get your funding from the beleaguered Avondale...shame,  good track,  but I am told the facilities would cost huge sums to bring up to modern compliance standards...so start there and get the ball rolling.

When the RB is found to be,  well,  creative,  in their assessments,  send them on their way.

But sacking them now would be counterproductive - who in their right mind would offer to temporarily oversee the cockup that it is?

 

Avondale is a very good track Pam, but the infrastructure is dilapidated due to years of neglect. It would be a knock down, start again job.

As for attracting Asian punters, competing with Shatin, Happy Valley, Singapore and Co might be a bridge too far....;)

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25 minutes ago, Pam Robson said:

Great post,  yeah, I heard Winston's comment too,  I think he has been misinformed on this issue.

For sure,  if a club/track can be considered a drag on the industry,  certainly rationalise.  But, as you say,  very many of these clubs have received no funding for years,  and all the maintenace of track and facilities is voluntary.

I understand that NZ racing is insolvent,  but knocking off these small country clubs is not the way to go forward.  Yes,  a slick,  professional model to attract Asian punters and put some money back in the coffers,  certainly...so go and do it.

Smarten up Ellerslie further,  build your blasted allweather at Cambridge or wherever,  and get your funding from the beleaguered Avondale...shame,  good track,  but I am told the facilities would cost huge sums to bring up to modern compliance standards...so start there and get the ball rolling.

When the RB is found to be,  well,  creative,  in their assessments,  send them on their way.

But sacking them now would be counterproductive - who in their right mind would offer to temporarily oversee the cockup that it is?

 

I'm sure members of the RB know they are running round with targets on their backs and the noose is tightening but as far as NZTR are concerned there is plenty of excess fat that could and should have been trimmed  over these past few years . The increase in staff numbers at head office over previous years would lead you to believe that the increased staff levels would have be in line with a business that was growing it's bottom line exponentially at rate that would be reflected in the state of the industry it was funding . Instead we have an industry on it's knees , that reflects the way our successive "leaders" belief in themselves and management plans have shown them to be completely incompetent . To sack them all now i don't believe to be counterproductive as that is to assume they were ever productive , i honestly believe it would give industry participants a boost as we might start to believe that something significant might actually be going to happen .

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13 minutes ago, Ohokaman said:

Avondale is a very good track Pam, but the infrastructure is dilapidated due to years of neglect. It would be a knock down, start again job.

As for attracting Asian punters, competing with Shatin, Happy Valley, Singapore and Co might be a bridge too far....;)

Don't  I know that...but that is,  apparently, the rationale for the asset grab and upgrades....and nothing venture.....

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3 hours ago, nomates said:

Blue , i agree change has to come in some form but the closing of tracks  to save the industry costs in my opinion is misleading . Winston clearly stated on a news report a couple of nights ago tracks had to close as nztr can't continue to fund all the tracks in NZ . My understanding and from my knowledge of my local tracks is that these facilities fund all track maintenance and upkeep through track fees and other business ie , Levin jumpouts , grazing cattle , cutting hay etc , i stand to be corrected as i am not privvy to club business . I know when i first turned up at with a horse at Levin , 20 odd years ago , there was no track fees charged to owners as clubs used to get funding off head office on a per horse basis for track up keep . If i am correct and these facilities are self funding what finanacial savings are NZTR going to make . I do know these clubs have in the past applied for grants from other organisations to buy equipment etc . I know NZTR has a track fund but don't know how much if any has been used to help any of the clubs on the short to close , in fact some have already come out and stated that they fund all track maintenance themselves , i'm sure someone can put me straight on any of what i've said above is incorrect . The one thing i'm sure of is if your business model is struggling financially the first thing you look at is your costs and start by tightening your own belt and the one thing that is glaring by it's absence over that last few years is any form of retrenching at head office , lots of new positions created but have seen no evidence of staff numbers dropping . Cheers .

The industry doesn't fund all tracks but tracks do cost a lot of money to maintain , if they are not industry funded then they cost clubs money and that's the point . Down our way Gore and Winton are on the list , a track like Gore will cost more than 100k  a year to maintain in racing condition , no doubt track fees and grazing will help but no way will it cover the cost of maintaining a racing venue therefore the club will be making up the shortfall , money that could be going into stakes .  Rates , wages , insurance , building maintenance , fuel , track and lawn maintenance  , machinery repairs and maintenance , irrigation , electricity , communications  etc etc , it goes on .

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4 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

The industry doesn't fund all tracks but tracks do cost a lot of money to maintain , if they are not industry funded then they cost clubs money and that's the point . Down our way Gore and Winton are on the list , a track like Gore will cost more than 100k  a year to maintain in racing condition , no doubt track fees and grazing will help but no way will it cover the cost of maintaining a racing venue therefore the club will be making up the shortfall , money that could be going into stakes .  Rates , wages , insurance , building maintenance , fuel , track and lawn maintenance  , machinery repairs and maintenance , irrigation , electricity , communications  etc etc , it goes on .

You would be surprised at the amount of volunteer hours that go into maintaining these smaller club's tracks , not many have great surpluses of cash to be used to cover shortfalls year on year . Be interesting to know how much of Gore's 100k costs are covered by volunteer hours . It dosen't matter how successful their race day is financially (turnover ) they receive nothing extra as stakes are centrally funded and as a rule the smaller clubs outperform the larger metro clubs on a turnover to cost . DON'T chop off the legs that are holding the table stable . If Gore and Winton close where do the participants that train there or locals who have their horses trained there go ? Somewhere else is the simple answer , but what if a large majority go NAH , i'm retiring , NAH spend my money on something else if i can't go down to my local track and watch my horse . we can't afford for racing numbers or participent numbers to drop any substantial amount more than they have already , the game can't afford it .These are local tracks for local people and as long as they don't take industry money to remain a vital cog in the fabric of NZ racing then long may they continue .

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13 hours ago, nomates said:

You would be surprised at the amount of volunteer hours that go into maintaining these smaller club's tracks , not many have great surpluses of cash to be used to cover shortfalls year on year . Be interesting to know how much of Gore's 100k costs are covered by volunteer hours . It dosen't matter how successful their race day is financially (turnover ) they receive nothing extra as stakes are centrally funded and as a rule the smaller clubs outperform the larger metro clubs on a turnover to cost . DON'T chop off the legs that are holding the table stable . If Gore and Winton close where do the participants that train there or locals who have their horses trained there go ? Somewhere else is the simple answer , but what if a large majority go NAH , i'm retiring , NAH spend my money on something else if i can't go down to my local track and watch my horse . we can't afford for racing numbers or participent numbers to drop any substantial amount more than they have already , the game can't afford it .These are local tracks for local people and as long as they don't take industry money to remain a vital cog in the fabric of NZ racing then long may they continue .

In general volunteers are hard to find these days , people have busy lives and I suspect keeping costs to a100K will require volunteers , with out volunteers 120K is quit likely .  Wyndham gave up racing at Wyndham and  moved to Gore , they were losing money even though NZTR pays clubs a fee for staging a meeting , some where around $10 or $12k ??, without this industry money clubs like this would have failed much earlier .  The club made a profit of $7000 or $8000 on each race day held, McKenzie said.

Additional income came from a small farming operation on the course .

But it's not enough to cover the club's share of the racecourse's maintenance bills. The club and Wyndham Harness Racing Club lease the racecourse land off the Southland District Council.       

"The last five years we've been running at a [overall] loss off between $12,000 and $16,000,"

  If  Gore closes trainers might reverse the move and start training down the road at Wyndham and Winton trainers might move 28ks to Invercargill who knows , no doubt a few will do other things but they have options ,  if this actually happens (doubtful)  only time will tell if the gains out weigh the losses .

 

 

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22 minutes ago, tripple alliance said:

In general volunteers are hard to find these days , people have busy lives and I suspect keeping costs to a100K will require volunteers , with out volunteers 120K is quit likely .  Wyndham gave up racing at Wyndham and  moved to Gore , they were losing money even though NZTR pays clubs a fee for staging a meeting , some where around $10 or $12k ??, without this industry money clubs like this would have failed much earlier .  The club made a profit of $7000 or $8000 on each race day held, McKenzie said.

Additional income came from a small farming operation on the course .

But it's not enough to cover the club's share of the racecourse's maintenance bills. The club and Wyndham Harness Racing Club lease the racecourse land off the Southland District Council.       

"The last five years we've been running at a [overall] loss off between $12,000 and $16,000,"

  If  Gore closes trainers might reverse the move and start training down the road at Wyndham and Winton trainers might move 28ks to Invercargill who knows , no doubt a few will do other things but they have options ,  if this actually happens (doubtful)  only time will tell if the gains out weigh the losses .

 

 

I appreciate where your your coming from and i certainly don't have all the answers but i do know closing these tracks to save wastage isn't going to be of any great consequence in the grand scheme of trying to save  the industry . I do know that if tracks close a lot of people won't be in a position to just up sticks  and move to another track , they will have family , work that will make it unfeasible , properties to sell , who's buying their stables with no track , some will make the move but i know from talking to people a large number say it is simply unworkable with these commitments . As iv'e said participation numbers are so low now the industry can't afford to take a substantial loss of participants . Only my opinion but the cost savings IF all the listed tracks were closed won't make a ripple on what is required to turn this industry around . If the clubs are losing the amounts you suggest the clubs won't be able to sustain the losses and they will have hard decisions to make , but let them make those decisions , they've earned the right . If there as many struggling clubs as suggested then natural attrition will sort it out . 

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9 hours ago, tripple alliance said:

In general volunteers are hard to find these days , people have busy lives and I suspect keeping costs to a100K will require volunteers , with out volunteers 120K is quit likely .  Wyndham gave up racing at Wyndham and  moved to Gore , they were losing money even though NZTR pays clubs a fee for staging a meeting , some where around $10 or $12k ??, without this industry money clubs like this would have failed much earlier .  The club made a profit of $7000 or $8000 on each race day held, McKenzie said.

Additional income came from a small farming operation on the course .

But it's not enough to cover the club's share of the racecourse's maintenance bills. The club and Wyndham Harness Racing Club lease the racecourse land off the Southland District Council.       

"The last five years we've been running at a [overall] loss off between $12,000 and $16,000,"

  If  Gore closes trainers might reverse the move and start training down the road at Wyndham and Winton trainers might move 28ks to Invercargill who knows , no doubt a few will do other things but they have options ,  if this actually happens (doubtful)  only time will tell if the gains out weigh the losses .

 

 

For a normal Industry  day the payment is $30000 from NZTR to the club. I myself believe that this had not benefitted NZTR because you are assured to get 30000 for your meeting whether ypu have 50 people on course or 200.  Clubs now dont really need to get out there to encourage people to come to the races on Industry days becasue they get their payment and dont get a percentage off the on course betting.  In some cases the on course turnover is down as low as 5000 but I am not sure what the off course turnover for these meetings are but what would NZTR need the turnover to be to not make a loss on these meetings. It is a hard one because any business that made a loss running events or doing work would not survive so they would either go bankrupt or make radical changes. This is the same for the racing Industry they need to make changes for all thats is involved and if closing the clubs you dont think the answer is then what is it. 

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12 hours ago, army said:

For a normal Industry  day the payment is $30000 from NZTR to the club. I myself believe that this had not benefitted NZTR because you are assured to get 30000 for your meeting whether ypu have 50 people on course or 200.  Clubs now dont really need to get out there to encourage people to come to the races on Industry days becasue they get their payment and dont get a percentage off the on course betting.  In some cases the on course turnover is down as low as 5000 but I am not sure what the off course turnover for these meetings are but what would NZTR need the turnover to be to not make a loss on these meetings. It is a hard one because any business that made a loss running events or doing work would not survive so they would either go bankrupt or make radical changes. This is the same for the racing Industry they need to make changes for all thats is involved and if closing the clubs you dont think the answer is then what is it. 

$30,000 , are you sure army , that's a hell of a lot of money ,  add to that the stakes the wider industry also  pays and we have a cost of around $110,000 , perhaps that $30,000 is meant to cover costs like commentators , vets , barriers etc as well , if not then it's no surprise clubs are happy to stay where they are .

A point many miss is clubs have no obligation to work in the best interests of the wider racing industry or owners , trainers ,  jockeys , clubs exist for their members .

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5 hours ago, tripple alliance said:

$30,000 , are you sure army , that's a hell of a lot of money ,  add to that the stakes the wider industry also  pays and we have a cost of around $110,000 , perhaps that $30,000 is meant to cover costs like commentators , vets , barriers etc as well , if not then it's no surprise clubs are happy to stay where they are .

A point many miss is clubs have no obligation to work in the best interests of the wider racing industry or owners , trainers ,  jockeys , clubs exist for their members .

Yes the 30000 has to cover your expenses for the day but the point I was making was if NZTR pays that out plus stakes waht would they have to take on and off course just to cover their costs

 

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6 hours ago, army said:

Yes the 30000 has to cover your expenses for the day but the point I was making was if NZTR pays that out plus stakes waht would they have to take on and off course just to cover their costs

 

About 50% more than they do for industry days and at least double for premier days.

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