tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 26, 2018 12000 people at barrier trials and fun day at shatin. we would be happy for a quarter of that at most race meetings- it is amazing how with no other competition for the gambling dollar how fans come to love horse racing. also the way the jockey club wants their patrons to be part of the action. all starts again next week- best jockeys best trainers and biggest fan base- biggest prizemoney- 2 meetings a week. 2 tracks- what can we learn??? Black Kirrama 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bidlake 759 Report post Posted August 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, tim vince said: what can we learn??? not much. HK land area 2754 km squared population 7.3 million NZ land area 268021 km squared population 4.7 million not exactly apples with apples We're Doomed, 47South and Insider 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevy86 2,683 Report post Posted August 26, 2018 And superstition and gambling in their DNA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sickopunter 403 Report post Posted August 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Aaron Bidlake said: not much. HK land area 2754 km squared population 7.3 million NZ land area 268021 km squared population 4.7 million not exactly apples with apples That wouldn’t make it seem like maybe we have more racing than we should...? What point does your reply even make? Insider 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bidlake 759 Report post Posted August 26, 2018 I'm just saying we can't try and copy a Hong Kong or Singapore model, we need change here in NZ but we need to do it in a way that will suit NZ. We haven't got a massive population centered in one area so we need to do something that works for NZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted August 26, 2018 11 hours ago, tim vince said: 12000 people at barrier trials and fun day at shatin. we would be happy for a quarter of that at most race meetings- it is amazing how with no other competition for the gambling dollar how fans come to love horse racing. also the way the jockey club wants their patrons to be part of the action. all starts again next week- best jockeys best trainers and biggest fan base- biggest prizemoney- 2 meetings a week. 2 tracks- what can we learn??? TV, I love HK racing especially the international meeting in December. Had few good nights out at Happy Valley , brilliant backdrop to course at night , and location is the business .but not had much success on the punt there to be fair . Museum not bad as well. Did you mean some of the best jockeys and some of the best trainers though . I would put forward the arguement the best are not there , brilliant jockeys and trainers but the best ? Only two courses to learn the characteristics, no travel, facilities laid on and top end horses very good but majority older geldings going up and down grades year in year out . Although I like the year in year out up and down grades as its finding right horse right time right grade.These jockeys not riding multi million dollar stallion prospects having just stepped off a plane , then jetting off to next country to do it again.The trainers not getting intakes of 100 plus young horses each season with job of finding a couple multi million dollar stallions. Or a Willie Mullins doing the business globally and in different codes. Pam Robson and Ethereal 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk 1,317 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 16 hours ago, tim vince said: all starts again next week- best jockeys best trainers and biggest fan base- biggest prizemoney- 2 meetings a week. 2 tracks- what can we learn??? Corporate wannabbes get into management jobs by overstating their overseas experience. Thats what happened with the TAB. Just because the TAB (brain dead to original thought) believed copying Hong Kong couldn't fail in NZ they thrust onto the public the Triple Trio. Sure it worked in Hong Kong but that's because it started 20 or 30 years ago. If it started now it would probably suffer the same fate as in NZ. The TAB broke every rule of marketing believing the Triple Trio would work. The product was not simple even hardened punters had difficulty grasping it. They failed to listen to those familiar with Triple Trio betting who were saying it would be a disaster in NZ even though they gladly were participating in the Hong Kong version. I agree with Aaron. Just because it works overseas doesn't mean its applicable to NZ. That goes for the the overseas hirings as well. hedley, We're Doomed, gubellini and 1 other 3 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sickopunter 403 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 1 hour ago, slam dunk said: Corporate wannabbes get into management jobs by overstating their overseas experience. Thats what happened with the TAB. Just because the TAB (brain dead to original thought) believed copying Hong Kong couldn't fail in NZ they thrust onto the public the Triple Trio. Sure it worked in Hong Kong but that's because it started 20 or 30 years ago. If it started now it would probably suffer the same fate as in NZ. The TAB broke every rule of marketing believing the Triple Trio would work. The product was not simple even hardened punters had difficulty grasping it. They failed to listen to those familiar with Triple Trio betting who were saying it would be a disaster in NZ even though they gladly were participating in the Hong Kong version. I agree with Aaron. Just because it works overseas doesn't mean its applicable to NZ. That goes for the the overseas hirings as well. The triple trio was a dumb idea. People didn’t even understand what a trio was. That has very little or nothing to do with what TV was saying. In fact he would have probably told you it would fail too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 We could learn how they maintain two tracks with so much racing.i understand different climates but surely we don't have to put up with debacles like te rapa. Also how to maximise betting.having small pools and lots of them means no big punter will venture into them here. Aaron Bidlake 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Bidlake 759 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 Ah yes tracks for sure. The whole betting one is such a hard situation, we just have so much competition here for the gambling dollar. People are just so hard to convince to spend money on having a racing bet here, a group of mates and myself went up to Auckland earlier in the year, I suggested we have Friday night at the trots but there was no chance of that happening with the Casino calling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 when they have rubbish racing with small pools it just dilutes the other pools-3 trebles to many- first 4's take away from the trifecta pool. quinellas are woeful as pools go- as a rule of thumb the most a punter should bet into a pool is 10 percent- on a 7k quinella pool that's 700- years ago many of us were betting 1k into the q and trifecta pools- if we shouldn't look overseas for guidance what should we do- we are going terrible here. Tokyo racing for goodness sake- any skill here- it is just the tab taking money from punters who have no idea- now if u got 3 twenty dollar shots up in the trifect a 5-8k result should be about right- if the trifecta pool is 400- well u get my drift- it will sour punters- I see trebles with 70 bucks in them late sunday nights- really- if our product is not in any way skill based we have no point of difference. keno lotto roulette machines just churn the dosh- even a novice punter likes to think they have a bit of skill- Tokyo dirt gallops and many other meeting the tab give us have none- if they want to increase turnover they need to increase pool sizes -one way is to drop the tax and get rid of unproductive pools and rubbish venues. we have no fan base anymore.i have mates who bet league- they have great knowledge so it encourages them to bet- it don't mean they win but they are going in with a sense of I can beat them- now back to the point-hk has some of the most educated rank and files punters in the world - the biggest turnovers and we dont want to learn from them. the triple trio was a dead pool in hk when we introduced it here- which genius brought it in should have been fired sorry guys I would rather have the expertise of the hkjc than the loons who run our racing and tab. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum 1,833 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, tim vince said: when they have rubbish racing with small pools it just dilutes the other pools-3 trebles to many- first 4's take away from the trifecta pool. quinellas are woeful as pools go- as a rule of thumb the most a punter should bet into a pool is 10 percent- on a 7k quinella pool that's 700- years ago many of us were betting 1k into the q and trifecta pools- if we shouldn't look overseas for guidance what should we do- we are going terrible here. Tokyo racing for goodness sake- any skill here- it is just the tab taking money from punters who have no idea- now if u got 3 twenty dollar shots up in the trifect a 5-8k result should be about right- if the trifecta pool is 400- well u get my drift- it will sour punters- I see trebles with 70 bucks in them late sunday nights- really- if our product is not in any way skill based we have no point of difference. keno lotto roulette machines just churn the dosh- even a novice punter likes to think they have a bit of skill- Tokyo dirt gallops and many other meeting the tab give us have none- if they want to increase turnover they need to increase pool sizes -one way is to drop the tax and get rid of unproductive pools and rubbish venues. we have no fan base anymore.i have mates who bet league- they have great knowledge so it encourages them to bet- it don't mean they win but they are going in with a sense of I can beat them- now back to the point-hk has some of the most educated rank and files punters in the world - the biggest turnovers and we dont want to learn from them. the triple trio was a dead pool in hk when we introduced it here- which genius brought it in should have been fired sorry guys I would rather have the expertise of the hkjc than the loons who run our racing and tab. Bang on about that Kawasaki dirt racing TV , it's off the lower league NAR circuit , no form shown , no breeding shown ,no idea as to trainers /jockeys dusty or muddy dirt tracks inside motorway intersection by looks of it where every race is breakneck speed survival of fittest some sitting 25 wide the trip. With 100 bucks in a win pool why would you bother digging out the form from other avenues. Not for me. Top line Japan racing now that's a different matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 Yup different entirely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillipe 81 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 Tim has said the simplest of things that are totally correct. My argument about having unknowns (trainers and jockeys) at premier meetings makes them unattractive to punt on. No punting, leads to no attendance, no food sales and therefore no profits. There is absolutely NO point in constructing all weather tracks without first having a plan of what to race on them. Millions of $$ of Synthetic tracks will not fix the problems of this industry. Even on a good day at Ellerslie, with a perfect track, the crowds don’t show up. Why?? Poor food and facilities.. Silks has had the same name and food for 30years!! Show me a restaurant that has managed to survive and grow with that backward thinking. The chairs and tables are as old as me. A/c and TV’s old and useless. Etc etc. Use the same percentages that HK use.. HK 7.3 million - 2 great tracks NZ 4 million - should be one track but I will agree to three. No more needed, just a change of thinking by the industry to accommodate themselves to the action. Be ruthless, stop listening to management idiots and idiots with personal geographic desires on this forum. You cannot grow the betting base, the world is changing. Maximise what you have with your turnover, and consolidate your facilities. Waste money on tracks that won’t change the product to punters and keep heading South. A horse doesn’t give a hoot where it races.. just requires a reasonable track. The punter cares where he sits and what he eats when he (she) is both winning and loosing.. If I’m wrong then why do horses still turn up at race meeting and punters don’t? bestbets 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sickopunter 403 Report post Posted August 27, 2018 In Hong Kong people can get to beautiful Casinos in Macau as fast as many Kiwis can get to their closest racemeeting on any given Saturday etc. I don't see that as the problem. People still watch the All Blacks. It's the pinnacle of the sport and people know the players. People will still go to the big racedays where they know the horses and where they know there will be atmosphere and betting. Some will still watch Super Rugby but its dwindling. Maybe the finals etc for most. How many people do you think are going to go to NPC games this year? How many non die-hards even know the players? And how much betting do you think there will be? Too much Rugby is killing the game. It's diluting the quality and people can only take so much. There is also more on TV from around the world than there ever has been. And this is the sport that more closely than anything ties to our national identity. Can people not see the parallels? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 28, 2018 I can and im not too smart- I went to tearoha- great track gr8 committee but no crowd and facilties average-. it could be a perfect venue for upgrading- geographically ok- lots of land or training facilties and enough room for awt training- but having so many tracks close makes nil sense- the point is have a few top class venues with top class turf management and it will be better than we have now- its a case of more is not better-I hope messara agrees.u don't have to get rid of the clubs as such who have a lot of passionate people but change where they race and train Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk 1,317 Report post Posted August 28, 2018 3 hours ago, tim vince said: I can and im not too smart- I went to tearoha- great track gr8 committee but no crowd and facilties average-. it could be a perfect venue for upgrading- geographically ok- lots of land or training facilties and enough room for awt training- but having so many tracks close makes nil sense- the point is have a few top class venues with top class turf management and it will be better than we have now- its a case of more is not better-I hope messara agrees.u don't have to get rid of the clubs as such who have a lot of passionate people but change where they race and train Can't agree. Traditionally trainers have made money by selling land as housing swallows up their surrounds. Similarly clubs so that Avondale is an excellent example of selling up and moving out to between Kumeu and Orewa. Dairy flat would seem OK. Also breeders, owners, trainers have kept going by selling horses but concentrating venues into a few locations will diminish the pool of enthiasiasts willing to breed, own or train. There is no need nowadays for fancy grandstands its more about the track. North of Auckland e.g. Kumeu, Helensville across to Orewa has thousands of livestyle blocks many who would be participants if a suitable thoroughbred racetrack was in the vicinity. Its also where the population is rapidly expanding. New Zealand is not Hong Kong although many innovations from there can be followed. We're Doomed, Aaron Bidlake and Huey 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 28, 2018 If u can train where u race big saving for owners.also ready supply of horses.a bill to transport horses is a killer.te awamutu ruakaka seen a bill 900.unsustainable for average owners.10k jumping race at Grantham.10 percent to jockey and owner and say transport from waikato not much left for owner under 5k train8ng bill 3k plus.why would u. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 28, 2018 Meant trentham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryb 2,062 Report post Posted August 28, 2018 6 hours ago, Phillipe said: Use the same percentages that HK use.. HK 7.3 million - 2 great tracks NZ 4 million - should be one track but I will agree to three. No more needed, just a change of thinking by the industry to accommodate themselves to the action. Be ruthless, stop listening to management idiots and idiots with personal geographic desires on this forum. You cannot grow the betting base, the world is changing. Maximise what you have with your turnover, and consolidate your facilities. Waste money on tracks that won’t change the product to punters and keep heading South. A horse doesn’t give a hoot where it races.. just requires a reasonable track. The punter cares where he sits and what he eats when he (she) is both winning and loosing.. If I’m wrong then why do horses still turn up at race meeting and punters don’t? OH dear, its you who has missed the point and what you are prescribing would sink racing in no short time. Firstly HKs Population are crammed into a tiny little space, whereas NZ is spread from top to bottom, which 3 areas do you want to have the tracks at?. Ellerslie, Matamata & Cambridge? The rest a waste of time?. thats 3/4 of NZ ignored & marginalise's many more people than it encourages. Secondly Those idiots who you refer to with geographical desires are the very same people who have put in some incredible hard yards for the industry over many years, They deserve a voice & don't deserve to be labelled idiots. Thirdly Yep you are right, horses don't have much say in where they race, but owners do & what you are suggesting would see owners depart in droves, just remember some bugger owns these horses & pays the bills, not some collective group called NZ Racing Inc. Probably better for you to take on some of the advice on here & not compare us to a Racing jurisdiction that doesn't have very much in common with us other than a few breeds of horse. Look across the Tasman if you must to use a comparison, but like a few have suggested we need to carve out our own niche rather than look to others. ie: a mega jumping carnival during July/August & so on. Huey and We're Doomed 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 28, 2018 Racing is sunk as a public spectacle except party days.it is now a tv sport.been to Avondale lately.te aloha was empty there was 8 in the public stand watching the pakuranga hunt cup.i know I was one of them. I know lots of people have gone before us but how low do you want to go before the inevitable change. Things never stay the same.there was a six race programme in s island th other day.costs the same as running 12.how many through the gate and have a look at the turnover.does no one any good.u don't think I like it .I was in the boom times.its just reality.like an illness deal with it or get worse and slowly die Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk 1,317 Report post Posted August 28, 2018 Barry I think Tim as a bit biased when it comes to Hong Kong. Nevertheless many things they do the NZ hierarchy struggle to comprehend. Rather interested about Hong Kong policy towards bookmakers. They don't allow bookmakers e.g. NZTAB to run the book over their races which is interesting. Also the stipulation that the races must be replayed immediately after the running. I can just see the local Trackside directors fuming over that one. AS for the 8 in the grandstand I can remember driving 200 miles to a meeting arriving there to be told the races had been transferred up the road another 100 miles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonkatime 323 Report post Posted August 28, 2018 14 hours ago, slam dunk said: Also the stipulation that the races must be replayed immediately after the running. I can just see the local Trackside directors fuming over that one. That would mean I would have to miss the first leg of the third treble at the Darwin Greyhounds. With the third leg being a no tv race I would only be able to watch one leg of my treble or add to the $16 in the trifecta pool on one of the races. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim vince 985 Report post Posted August 29, 2018 Ha ha. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...