Stallion Service Fees..Value

[Octagonal 0]

Watched racing retro late last night being filmed at magic millions complex - on completion of raceday and the sales series, was a good show as normal.

Very interesting piece when they interviewed Gerry Harvey, discussion lead to service fees, returns for vendors etc. Gerry a passionate man commented on how stallion owners need to reduce their service fees. Alot of vendors would have been burned off a 250-300k service to Redoutes Choice, E D L comes to mind and he even mentioned More than Ready, being one of the owners - a reduction in stallion fees is required as per his argument(mind you he has a lot of stalions).

From a NZ perspective who do you believe is over priced.

I think the WS stallions are overpriced though Pins and O'Reilly(no free return if foal dies) do deserve there dues on performance, there seems to be too many at the sales, and Savabeel @ 20k is overcooking it abit.

Any thoughts?

[Jase 0]

I thought that both Elusive City and Faltaat both provided very good value this season just gone, when considering racetrack results, market fashionability and the 2010 yearling sales averages. The studs of these stallions 'got it right' in terms of the fee - yet niether of these stallions served over 100 mares.

At the top end of the scale - I think Mastercraftsman (25k), Volksraad (22k)and Thorn Park (13.5k) and Darci Brahma (20k) all very well priced under the same criteria.

Researching into the stallion returns of NZ stallions shows what a croc some other NZ service fees are.

Take Any Suggestion as an example - He served 111 mares in 2009, so you would think lots of people saw him as good value. However, I note he is a syndicated horse into 40 shares, and each share got 2 noms that year, so thats 80 mares, add on the studs standing rights (usually 10-15 noms per year), the marketing noms, the nom for the agent and the trainer that normally go into a syndication, that will take you to about 100 mares. Which would mean only about 11 paying/outside mares.

Fast n Famous this season (2010) served 61 mares per the studbook. 32 of those are Waikato's, add on any free returns, marketing noms etc, he probably only had 20 paying mares this season just gone, many of which I understand were heavily discounted - yet his advertised fee remained at $10,000. (note F&F's half sister by Bernadini passed in at the Magic Millions last week in the mid 100's - shows you how much the aussies value F&F!)

Savabeel is another example. Served 85 mares in 2010, but again a syndicated horse in 50 shares, plus stud noms etc, he to probably only had 10 paying mares this season!

Us silly buggers who are paying service fees are becoming the minority in NZ!

[Kingshill 233]

I was thinking a couple of weeks ago after Miss Raggedy Annes (Sp?) victory in the Railway and the Faltaat horse (Name escapes me) from the Howarth/Dixon barn which won a main race at Ellerslie over the carnival - Will they promote Faltaat more in the next upcoming breeding season? This past season he was $P.O.A. He still seems to be doing the job well, and getting results in Asia too.

[Breeder 608]

Debates about service fees surprise me, abit. With the very expensive ones ( like Red. Choice, EDL etc ) fair enough. But at the other end plus or minus $2-5 k is not much when compared to the cost of keeping a horse and raising & preparing the yearling. It could be an issue if you have your own land and you can do all the work yourself then a few $K is a significant part of the total cost but for those paying others to do all the work then it isn't so great. If you are in the game to sell the yearling then the focus has to be on the potential sales value.

NB. I'm not associated with any stud or stallion

[Dopey 214]

I notice a fair amount of banter about Waikato Stud Stallions here...

What would you do if you owned a stud. Lets face it - its not easy to put yourself in the position to have a name stud. Have a go and see.

I think that stud owners have been caught out by the market collapse as much as many people - so of course when you look back some stallions look a bit heavy in the $$ department given todays market...in general studs want to stay ahead of the market on that count - thats their business. However, i think that the pendulum has swung a long way back this time and a RESET (promising stallion) is here for a while.

So suck it up breeders, pay your money or don't , come up with a new approach or don't, but don't wynge about it (paying too much for services afterwards)...

Be the buyer if you don't like it....

NB. I have no assoication with any stud although have one nom of a one share in one stallion - more fool me.

[Octagonal 0]

I notice a fair amount of banter about Waikato Stud Stallions here...

What would you do if you owned a stud. Lets face it - its not easy to put yourself in the position to have a name stud. Have a go and see.

I think that stud owners have been caught out by the market collapse as much as many people - so of course when you look back some stallions look a bit heavy in the $$ department given todays market...in general studs want to stay ahead of the market on that count - thats their business. However, i think that the pendulum has swung a long way back this time and a RESET (promising stallion) is here for a while.

So suck it up breeders, pay your money or don't , come up with a new approach or don't, but don't wynge about it (paying too much for services afterwards)...

Be the buyer if you don't like it....

NB. I have no assoication with any stud although have one nom of a one share in one stallion - more fool me.

I wasn't targeting Waikato, I just thought Savabeel was a great example where i your shelling out that 30k in the past and 20k now its difficult to get your costs back in the ring.

But Jase brought up some great points on actually paying service fees vs shareholder support, and outside mares going to stallions - great insight.

I actually think in the next couple of years Falkirk could emerge as a very good producer similar to Faltaat - very good milers, and need a little time.

Wouldn't be surprised if a Patinack stallion ends up in NZ also, something like Trusting.

[brucee 2]

The market(breeders) dictate what they are prepared to pay. Those higher priced stallions with very average books have been deemed to be poor value by the market. Sometimes they get it right and with others they get it wrong. Many will negotiate the bigger ones tend to hang tough unless you are getting multiple bookings then they can discount. Savabeel has been handy but as yet appears a long way off justifying his initial fee. If you have chosen a dud the a $1000 service fee is expensive.

[Pam 1]

Service fees are set and its the breeders choice whether they think they are value for money or not.

The expensive part is the vet fees I.M.H.O. because you don't know how much they are going to end up stinging you.

[Small Change 0]

Not just the Vet fees though. You have to add on agistment, foaling fees etc etc.

However, they still have to pay staff to sit up all night for foaling, and some nights no mares go!!. Been there, done that, hard work staying awake if nothing happening.

Have to think hard about foaling my mare at home this year or sending her to stud. Who knows, a new stallion may be on the lookout for mares by then & may be able to negotiate???

[optical 41]

Not just the Vet fees though. You have to add on agistment, foaling fees etc etc.

However, they still have to pay staff to sit up all night for foaling, and some nights no mares go!!. Been there, done that, hard work staying awake if nothing happening.

Have to think hard about foaling my mare at home this year or sending her to stud. Who knows, a new stallion may be on the lookout for mares by then & may be able to negotiate???

I dont think staff at the major studs are holding back some of their multi million dollar businesses. In fact with a couple of the major studs it would only take 4 or 5 service fees for a stallion to cover the expense of staff for the season. The one thing I dont understand is that the studs put their own bit on top of vet fee's and farrier bills etc. You would think that they would be just happy charging grazing to the owner and that he/she is breeding to their mare but then again they are being seen dipping their hand in the cookie jar.

Of course the stallion fees are too expensive, however, until the market turns itself over and they all do it together then they will be seen at devaluing their product in which no stud will do alone. Also if the consumer is willing to pay overs then they will continue to over charge!

[Dopey 214]

Clearly, anyone who asks a trainer or agent to purchase a horse in excess of $100k at the sales, with racing in $5k maidens in mind ($3000 to the winner, on the basis of an average 1.x starts per month with $2k+ training fees per month + expenses) is doing it for the love of the sport.

Come on. Most people I know are racing overseas now or looking to transfer.

Lets not beat around the bush. New Zealand racing is NOT currently "the best place in the world to race a horse"

however it is perhaps:

"the best place in the world to rear and develop your horse for racing"...surely we can build on that premise.

[Kevan15 19]

I think the NZ stallions are quite fairly priced actually, there are a couple that are a bit over, Darci Brahma springs to mind, but there are some very well priced ones out there. Elusive City is still at a very good price, when his fee could've easily been increased on the back of his 2010 sales results. I think Thorn Park is great value as well. In my experience so far, admittedly I'm still fairly new to the breeding game, but it seems most of the time there is some room to negotiate a better rate with the stud, you just may need to hold your ground a little longer.

[MegL 5]

Ifraaj I think was tremendous value for money this last season.

[trakdap 390]

I agree,

Haunui farm are very good . They are very realistic in their fee's. They have stallions that are well performed with added value for the discerning breeder.

[jess 1,244]

inclined to agree - but time till tell. When he was on fire up in Europe with his 2 year olds - Haunui didn't start scribbling out the numbers on the slate and putting the fee up (like has happened here in NZ with shuttle horses previously).

I wonder how successful Iffraaj will prove over southern hemisphere mares? There are some nay-sayers (of course most of these did not go to him early - and will not go to him now, on principle - despite his record-breaking effort in Europe!)

Hopefully he'll prove every bit as good - or better as he's proved in the north!

Good luck if you have one - I have looked thru' the pictures and videos on the NZB type - and that - along with the Iffraajs I have seen in the flesh - tell me he is really throwing a "type" - and to my eye - they look pretty good.

We'll see ....

[eastern whipbird 82]

Studs essentially charge what the traffic will bear but the breeder, especially the small one, needs to realise that if breeding to sell, other factors will almost certainly have to be counteracted. First the holding costs.e.g. Interest on the money expended on service fee;preparation costs, insurance. entry fee. Secondly the fact that on sale day you will be competing against the stud selling the same sire and I can guarantee that you won't get any favours from the stud.

Until we get to the stallion station stage the small breeder will always get screwed by the studs, at sale time especially.

[Huntswoman 0]

Why do you suggest 'stallion stallions' will rectify the dilemma faced with the small breeder???? Considering the majority of studs 3 or more stallions now, are you suggesting that those who stand say, 10 stallions are going to offer a better deal than presently??

I think you will find that in time there will only be stallion stations, and mare farms. or the odd stud purely breeding their own for sales etc.

Getting terribly hard for the small breeders, unless K1 mares, even then depends on which stallion is in favour.