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Fartoomuch

Open Class Races

25 posts in this topic

If you were a racing secretary you would currently be having nightmares as to how many would pay up if the race was in the next few weeks.

But the old days of having 6-9 races pre NZ Cup are long gone with most horses only having 2-4 starts before The Cup. As such there is probably no need to program one before the end of August or am i reading this wrong

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They will programme some, and these will race with 3 or 4 acceptors.    The TAB will come up with some "kooky" betting options and then they will all wonder why their turnover is plummeting.      Unfortunately these days only options appear to be :

1) If in NI - send them from mid August to the SI

2) If in the SI - send them to Mark/Nat - this includes NI's that have just gone down there

3) Sit back and wait for Mark/Nat to sort them all out programmes in Aussie then watch them get exported.

4) If the above remedy not to your liking then just help an agent get fat and sell them off the sooner the better.

 

In other words open class racing in NZ is next to extinct! 

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Take your blinkers off fartoomuch. All stars while they have every right to do what they please. They are killing New Zealand age group and open class racing by 1000 cuts. There's no answer to it but sell our better horses. The costs of training it is unafordable to race a horse unless there is a return. I know it's defeatist but surely they realise it as well.

 

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No blinkers here old son, read the opening thread, its about the changes that have occurred in terms of training horses for NZ Cup as much as anything else.Sure the AS have some really good cattle but as an example they didnt feature in NZ Derby which i voted as the best race this season.

Pats Delight wont be sold by his aging owner and as for the rest who knows what might occur. If you read AS webpage they don't even know who will be lining up for them as yet. The Hannon,Flying stakes and Kaikoura Cup will all be good races this season.

I will take issue with your last points in that you say there is no answer but to sell and mention unafordable training costs and the need for a return. I suggest you need  look further  than last Sundays Oamaru races as an example of how not to make a return whilst paying the bills but yet they had full fields.

 

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I don"t get your reference of Oamaru. Full fields sure but the average horse here is worth perhaps 5k. If there is a market for them at all. The things is once you get one good enough for the group races then you strike the AS team.  The money your horse is now worth and your chances of winning one of these races, it makes it an easy decision to sell. That are the simple facts. 

The only thing that may save it is owners like Pat Kubala who wants to win a good race. And you say he won't sell! He must be a Bit of a Legend then.

 

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1 hour ago, dkc said:

I don"t get your reference of Oamaru. Full fields sure but the average horse here is worth perhaps 5k. If there is a market for them at all. The things is once you get one good enough for the group races then you strike the AS team.  The money your horse is now worth and your chances of winning one of these races, it makes it an easy decision to sell. That are the simple facts. 

The only thing that may save it is owners like Pat Kubala who wants to win a good race. And you say he won't sell! He must be a Bit of a Legend then.

 

I dont get your concept that if you have a good horse it wont be able to compete against AS . You even mentioned defeatist which is where i will concur with you. Pats horse and Sheriff were the 2 best 3yr olds this  season with the Derby and Jewels results confirmation. Neither trained or driven by Nat or Mark

 

The Oamaru reference was that it costs just as much to train and race a good one as it does the battlers who went around last Sunday. The main difference is that those ones will never give their owners a positive return yet they line up every week nonetheless

 

Just my thoughts on the matter but respect your choice to take an alternative position

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I don't think either will be 3yo of the year. Chase Auckland will probably take that title. Over the last 3 year years you have come up with one example except for the trotters (and they now have there eyes onthis money too).

You sound like you are the AS number one fan or marketing manager.

All I am doing is give my personal view to what the end result of this total domination is and it's not good.

It's a problem for the TAB ie lack of turnover on these races. Which means its a problem for harness racing in general.

Look at Southern harness. It's bucking the trend. 3 things standout, they don't have group racing. Their field sizeis better than the average and they don't get the AS's

Putting our head in the sand is not an option IMHO

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1 minute ago, dkc said:

I don't think either will be 3yo of the year. Chase Auckland will probably take that title. Over the last 3 year years you have come up with one example except for the trotters (and they now have there eyes onthis money too).

You sound like you are the AS number one fan or marketing manager.

All I am doing is give my personal view to what the end result of this total domination is and it's not good.

It's a problem for the TAB ie lack of turnover on these races. Which means its a problem for harness racing in general.

Look at Southern harness. It's bucking the trend. 3 things standout, they don't have group racing. Their field sizeis better than the average and they don't get the AS's

Putting our head in the sand is not an option IMHO

Ok , your right and im wrong. As i said earlier " Just my thoughts on the matter but respect your choice to take an alternative position"

PS Not number1 fan of AS but have great admiration for the way they handle themselves,owners and horses.

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5 hours ago, dkc said:

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Look at Southern harness. It's bucking the trend. 3 things standout, they don't have group racing. Their field sizeis better than the average and they don't get the AS's

Don't get the AS's? :D What the hell are you on about? I recall a number of wins by All Stars horses in Southland last season.

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11 hours ago, Thejanitor said:

Don't get the AS's? :D What the hell are you on about? I recall a number of wins by All Stars horses in Southland last season.

A Bettor Act??

Methinks dkc protests to much. His arguments are not very coherent and might be the result of too many Swedes or Oysters

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Here are some stats.

181 individual drivers won between 1-232 races.

All-Stars won 122 races.'

Mark, Nat, and Tim (he drives a few outsiders) won 126 races.

Top 11 drivers won 1022 races between them not a lot of them won on All-Stars horses.

From memory, there are about 373 licensed trainers. 

 

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3 hours ago, Newmarket said:

A Bettor Act??

Methinks dkc protests to much. His arguments are not very coherent and might be the result of too many Swedes or Oysters

A Better Act won a group 2 Race there.

Just my opinion don't shoot me down. New market and Janitor your both disagreeing with me but not giving me your view on what the problem or solution is for the group racing problem 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lee270744 said:

Here are some stats.

181 individual drivers won between 1-232 races.

All-Stars won 122 races.'

Mark, Nat, and Tim (he drives a few outsiders) won 126 races.

Top 11 drivers won 1022 races between them not a lot of them won on All-Stars horses.

From memory, there are about 373 licensed trainers. 

 

nice Stats but you fail to put the money won by these stables. is that to make your case look better. Do the states On the Group races. It will be a completely different story. And that could be the reason that we are not getting Open class races with more that 7 or 8 runners. When they get to this point they are sold?

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All-Stars   4,463,338.

D Dunn   2,305,730.

B Orange  2,399.960.

J Dunn    1,275,952.

R May   1.1m.

Z Butcher 1m.

There is a bit more money won by the other 175 drivers. 

want to sell then race them in Aussie with Kiwi trainers I know its a longer trip for the owners but the money is there. 

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15 minutes ago, Lee270744 said:

All-Stars   4,463,338.

D Dunn   2,305,730.

B Orange  2,399.960.

J Dunn    1,275,952.

R May   1.1m.

Z Butcher 1m.

There is a bit more money won by the other 175 drivers. 

want to sell then race them in Aussie with Kiwi trainers I know its a longer trip for the owners but the money is there. 

Starts Wins ▾ 2nds 3rds Stakes UDR
Mark Purdon & Natalie Rasmussen 367 122 71 40 4,463,338 0.4762
Robert Dunn 618 96 81 77 1,374,162 0.2697
Michael House 270 57 33 28 413,250 0.3136
Steve Telfer 346 50 47 47 695,064 0.2653
Cran Dalgety 250 48 31 28 787,820

0.2982

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Just now, dkc said:
Starts Wins ▾ 2nds 3rds Stakes UDR
Mark Purdon & Natalie Rasmussen 367 122 71 40 4,463,338 0.4762
Robert Dunn 618 96 81 77 1,374,162 0.2697
Michael House 270 57 33 28 413,250 0.3136
Steve Telfer 346 50 47 47 695,064 0.2653
Cran Dalgety 250 48 31 28 787,820

0.2982

Theses are the stats that I am talking about not picking bits out of different tables to support your case. 4.463 mill love to know what percentage they got of the group money.

Hey good on them!

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20 hours ago, dkc said:

A Better Act won a group 2 Race there.

Just my opinion don't shoot me down. New market and Janitor your both disagreeing with me but not giving me your view on what the problem or solution is for the group racing problem 

 

 

 

Not shooting you down just adding a different perspective to the discussion.You and A few others seem obsessed with the success of AS. for the record I don't see that there is a real problem yet. The first open class pace has not even been scheduled and most of those heading to cup will have no more than three lead up races in most cases.Smaller fields often provide the best racing and punting opportunities

As for solution to what you perceive to be a group racing program its really simple, the rest have to get better than Team AS. Given they and their loyal customers bought fewer yearlings this year and Dunn's for example  bought twice as many then who knows how things will unfold in the 2yr old races.

Just my thoughts

 

 

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Similar in Victoria Racing with Emma Stewart dominence Dont hear any winging over there. They just get on with trying to beat her.

Renown Silverware State Trainers Premiership

Name Races 1sts 2nds 3rds 4ths Stakes
Emma Stewart 625 243 129 64 41 $2,627,570
Andy Gath 437 95 71 57 36 $865,395
Brent Lilley 446 76 71 60 44 $802,390
Kerryn Manning 222 72 39 31 19 $729,920
Anton Golino 325 69 47 40 32 $776,785
Glenn Douglas 627 68 84 89 86 $539,955
David Aiken 298 57 60 36 34 $841,965
Margaret Lee 182 56 31 27 25 $487,230
Laura Crossland 155 50 17 13 13 $337,585
Matthew Craven 301 43 45 36 43 $346,920

 

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3 hours ago, harewood said:

Similar in Victoria Racing with Emma Stewart dominence Dont hear any winging over there. They just get on with trying to beat her.

Renown Silverware State Trainers Premiership

Name Races 1sts 2nds 3rds 4ths Stakes
Emma Stewart 625 243 129 64 41 $2,627,570
Andy Gath 437 95 71 57 36 $865,395
Brent Lilley 446 76 71 60 44 $802,390
Kerryn Manning 222 72 39 31 19 $729,920
Anton Golino 325 69 47 40 32 $776,785
Glenn Douglas 627 68 84 89 86 $539,955
David Aiken 298 57 60 36 34 $841,965
Margaret Lee 182 56 31 27 25 $487,230
Laura Crossland 155 50 17 13 13 $337,585
Matthew Craven 301 43 45 36 43 $346,920

 

Exactly right about how Emma dominates Victoria racing.In fact probably more so than All Stars dominate NZ.What is interesting is that the average winning stake in Australia seems to be less than in NZ going by these figures

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10 hours ago, Newmarket said:

Not shooting you down just adding a different perspective to the discussion.You and A few others seem obsessed with the success of AS. for the record I don't see that there is a real problem yet. The first open class pace has not even been scheduled and most of those heading to cup will have no more than three lead up races in most cases.Smaller fields often provide the best racing and punting opportunities

As for solution to what you perceive to be a group racing program its really simple, the rest have to get better than Team AS. Given they and their loyal customers bought fewer yearlings this year and Dunn's for example  bought twice as many then who knows how things will unfold in the 2yr old races.

Just my thoughts

 

 

The Dunns bought twice as many? Really , be interesting to know the numbers including home breeds, I'll do home work on the Dunns but I'm willing to take any sort of money that they don't have as many yearling as the all stars and no I rate the all stars the most proffesional trainers in the country and would never bag what they do.

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