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poundforpound

Saundry on AW tracks

100 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Leggy said:

I'm still perplexed as to where this idea of synthetic tracks has emerged from. The article referred to in the opening post cites Saundry as saying "The minister has been supportive of synthetic tracks in the New Zealand First racing policy."    However, there is no mention of AWTs, let alone synthetic tracks, in the NZF election policy. Saundry also seems to be talking about them more as necessary for training, trials and jumpouts than for racing. I don't really get it. I wouldn't want to race on one at least for a year or two until I'd had a chance to assess it's performance and I probably wouldn't want to trial or jump out a horse on one either when we generally have good turf facilities available for that. Something doesn't add up.

There might be no mention of AWT/synthetic tracks in the NZF racing policy, but what matters more is what was signed up to post-election by the 3 coalition partners. And what has been wrangled since.

At Karaka in January Peters said ..." Abandoned races result in millions of dollars lost to the racing industry each year.  A further priority for this government is investment in an all-weather race track. This will be subject to this year’s government budget process.  The objective is clear. Such a track would be an important step in helping certainty and consistency of racing."

Although Peters referred to "an" and "a" (i.e.one) all-weather track, within days John Allen was referring to synthetic tracks and calling for 2 synthetic tracks, each costing $6-10 million, to be located at Cambridge and in Canterbury.

Whether or not things add up depends on what items are being summed, and by whom?  The way Peters operates I guess he is delighted that people are thrashing around in confusion, and I doubt that either of the other coalition partners cares at all (any more than the last government did).

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Yes, I know he said that at Karaka but the coalition agreement said only that Labour would " Support New Zealand First’s Racing policy." which had no mention of AWTs and there is no mention of anything in the budget in relation to that which Peters said it would be subject to. The only racing related matter in the budget was the bloodstock tax deductions. That reference was also to an AWT, not necessarily a synthetic, let alone 3 of them. And this would require support from other parties, probably the Greens who only have a confidence and supply agreement with Labour. I can't see them signing up to a $40m spend on racing. It's not only confusing. It's probably pie in the sky whether it's a good idea in the first place or not. Can't see it happening.

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I can't see how 2 or 3 all weather tracks spread through the country will help lower the number of abandonments in real life. Clubs will still want to race on their own tracks. And most meetings are abandoned either on the morning or after the program has started. By then it is too late to shift the meeting to another venue. 

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4 hours ago, Peter Harrop said:

I can't see how 2 or 3 all weather tracks spread through the country will help lower the number of abandonments in real life. Clubs will still want to race on their own tracks. And most meetings are abandoned either on the morning or after the program has started. By then it is too late to shift the meeting to another venue. 

Another consideration is that if an abandonment is made in good time for a shift to another venue on the same raceday, the club needing to shift might not want to move to the closest all weather track. 

For example, if the New Plymouth track was unusable, there are 4 tracks on which galloping meetings are held closer than Awapuni/Woodville (Hawera, Waverley, Wanganui and Stratford).  The Taranaki JC and its sponsors, members, etc, and connections of acceptors, might prefer to race at one or any of them, rather than be dragooned off to Awapun/Woodville 

Think also of Wairoa being unable to race.  They would logically prefer to move to Hastings or Gisborne, or maybe Waipukurau. 

At least in those instance all of the tracks mentioned race the same way round, left-handed.  In the north, unless the all weather track is able to be used in either direction (with moveable finishing post, judge's box, etc?) there will be owners and trainers unwilling to race horses the opposite way round to the cancelled meeting.

All and Saundry might have answers to such considerations, of course.  One might be that by the time anything worthwhile gets done things will be so dire that most  clubs will have folded.

 

 

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It is reported this morning  John Gosden is considering the September Stakes (surprisingly enough run in September) at Kempton as Enable's seasonal  return and Arc prep. Arguably the world's best 2400 metre horse , All weather tracks have come a long way when it's venue for  the Arc favorites tune up. 

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16 hours ago, Scotch Thistle said:

Another consideration is that if an abandonment is made in good time for a shift to another venue on the same raceday, the club needing to shift might not want to move to the closest all weather track. 

For example, if the New Plymouth track was unusable, there are 4 tracks on which galloping meetings are held closer than Awapuni/Woodville (Hawera, Waverley, Wanganui and Stratford).  The Taranaki JC and its sponsors, members, etc, and connections of acceptors, might prefer to race at one or any of them, rather than be dragooned off to Awapun/Woodville 

Think also of Wairoa being unable to race.  They would logically prefer to move to Hastings or Gisborne, or maybe Waipukurau. 

At least in those instance all of the tracks mentioned race the same way round, left-handed.  In the north, unless the all weather track is able to be used in either direction (with moveable finishing post, judge's box, etc?) there will be owners and trainers unwilling to race horses the opposite way round to the cancelled meeting.

All and Saundry might have answers to such considerations, of course.  One might be that by the time anything worthwhile gets done things will be so dire that most  clubs will have folded.

 

 

It's a good point you make and why aren't preliminary arrangements made as a back up at track nearby to where races are being held if they can't be at existing venue. Especially with the weather we get in  NZ.

Make the most of some of these venues that are being under used.

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You guys are just kicking this thing around and its just like NZ Racing where inertia is the norm.

Its really simple the first AWT needs to be Strathayr and it goes in at Waikato to cut out the long trek to Ruakaka. The second goes in at Awapuni and that with the use of Foxton Wanganui and Waverley which are ok winter tracks sorts out the CD.

The AWT in the north should give bankable returns to provide security to put the SI one in.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Nerula said:

Allegedly they are losing money on cancelled meets. So if you believe that shouldnt the obverse apply? You tell us!

I think it was Purcell who wrote a piece a few years back  titled something like 'the most profitable races are the ones we don't have'. Given the average TB race loses money - the stakes alone are subsidised by sports, pokies, and overseas racing - the only way a meeting on a new $10m track could generate bankable returns is if there is a significant increase in wagering on it. Haven't seen any analysis of that yet though.

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9 minutes ago, Leggy said:

I think it was Purcell who wrote a piece a few years back  titled something like 'the most profitable races are the ones we don't have'. Given the average TB race loses money - the stakes alone are subsidised by sports, pokies, and overseas racing - the only way a meeting on a new $10m track could generate bankable returns is if there is a significant increase in wagering on it. Haven't seen any analysis of that yet though.

I think it was Michael Stiassny who first said that......about industry days.

With regard to Strathayr....I understand your concerns but surely you’d agree that if we’re going to penetrate global markets we need a product equivalent to that of our global competitors to attract customers.....that seems to me to be the rationale behind this.

With regard to Winston, well he’s made it clear that the RDF is there for the industry to use, but it’s to be a collaboration with the clubs, a JV type exercise I suppose.

On that basis aren’t we back to square one ? If NZTR can’t give the industry a visionary strategic plan and the clubs can’t unite to stand together for our common good what hope have we got ?

We have the resources, we have the assets, but we don’t seem to have the will or the vision required to make the necessary changes.

Is that fair comment ?

 

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27 minutes ago, poundforpound said:

I think it was Michael Stiassny who first said that......about industry days.

With regard to Strathayr....I understand your concerns but surely you’d agree that if we’re going to penetrate global markets we need a product equivalent to that of our global competitors to attract customers.....that seems to me to be the rationale behind this.

With regard to Winston, well he’s made it clear that the RDF is there for the industry to use, but it’s to be a collaboration with the clubs, a JV type exercise I suppose.

On that basis aren’t we back to square one ? If NZTR can’t give the industry a visionary strategic plan and the clubs can’t unite to stand together for our common good what hope have we got ?

We have the resources, we have the assets, but we don’t seem to have the will or the vision required to make the necessary changes.

Is that fair comment ?

 

Totally agree. We have to increase wagering revenue, and to do that a MUST have critical ingredient is tracks that provide fair and competitive racing attractive to punters globally. A couple of Strathayrs alone won't do that though. It is only part of one ingredient  and you can't bake a cake if you only have flour.

As you say, it also requires a package of strategic ingredients to be put in place and since NZTR have failed and continue to fail to provide the necessary leadership to do that and get clubs and other industry participants behind it, the situation remains hopeless.

You might dream that the Messiah report recommendations will capture the necessary strategies and somehow Winston will galvanise NZTR and the rest of the industry into action to get behind and implement them. I won't be holding my breath though.

 

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Many continue a discussion in terms that each all weather is a stand alone track. We've got to think bigger and more strategically if we are to improve our relevance as a sport. The all weather should be part of a bigger structure that has relevance 30+ years from now. we must think in terms of entertainment relevance, whether that be horses. racing, betting or plain and simple use for other forms of entertainment. We could also be seriously smart and bring in real estate plays. education and research. We could extend every center to include all other forms of equestrian sports because once our horses finish racing, what then? Sausages, dog meat or a new life of standing neglected in a shitty paddock with not a blade of grass, or heavens forbid the apple of a young person's eye to once again feel as though they are the center of the universe.

I'll say this until the cows come home, the priests square off against the young boys and Prince Charles stops talking to plants. who is going to be responsible for bringing this together? Who is qualified, has the time, passion and brains to get the right data together and act sensibly?

We recently lost a gem...Dr Ray Thomson, who could have been one of those forward thinking blokes that could have helped. Unfortunately he died in Fiji this week and he will be missed by many.

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On 8/4/2018 at 7:45 AM, Red Rum said:

It is reported this morning  John Gosden is considering the September Stakes (surprisingly enough run in September) at Kempton as Enable's seasonal  return and Arc prep. Arguably the world's best 2400 metre horse , All weather tracks have come a long way when it's venue for  the Arc favorites tune up. 

Correct but there are still some people who bag the use of them. Good enough for one of the worlds best ( trainer and horse) but not good enough for NZ winter maidens, r65 and 72 horses. Will be big asset for many years if placed in the right areas. Locality, locality, locality

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The trainers i talk too tell me horses tend too break down more on artificial tracks so the only answer is Strathayr just like Singapore and Hong Kong which handle rain ,you very really see a meeting cancelled over there and when it rains it buckets down.DO IT ONCE DO IT RIGHT

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1 hour ago, uneasy said:

Correct but there are still some people who bag the use of them. Good enough for one of the worlds best ( trainer and horse) but not good enough for NZ winter maidens, r65 and 72 horses. Will be big asset for many years if placed in the right areas. Locality, locality, locality

Depends what they’re made of thought Pitty, you’ll be the first one screaming if we get this wrong and all your horses get lower back or rear end injuries, or worse still, they use a wax based option and we catastrophic canon bone / fetlock injuries.

My position is that we as an industry can easily afford Strathayr, and we should aim for that because anything else is just a “poor relation” option, and it’s likely to end in tears. 

Mind you I also subscribe to the tricode model so maybe I’m out on a limb with my thinking.

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I'm more than ok with  strathayr tracks being built We need to get on with 3 decent tracks, racing training and trial facilities then centralise the bulk of our racing. Like many I am some what surprised that Ellerslie has not invested in a Strathayr surface given their financial situation and on going revenue streams.

At the same time we still need our one day clubs that do put on a good day and remain profitable I know that centralisation is a dirty word to some people but we don't need the amount of race courses and facilities we are struggling to maintain 

Sincerly 

Michael Pitman

 

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7 minutes ago, uneasy said:

At the same time we still need our one day clubs that do put on a good day and remain profitable I know that centralisation is a dirty word to some people

but we don't need the amount of race courses and facilities we are struggling to maintain 

Sincerly 

Michael Pitman

 

At last a leading trainer actually at the coal face admits we have too many racing facilities, maybe there is some hope. Well done Pitty I hope others are listening.

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2 hours ago, uneasy said:

Correct but there are still some people who bag the use of them. Good enough for one of the worlds best ( trainer and horse) but not good enough for NZ winter maidens, r65 and 72 horses. Will be big asset for many years if placed in the right areas. Locality, locality, locality

Totally agree about John Gosden one of world's best . He is great to listen to as a punter. He gives such an insight into his plans , how he  implements them and his assessment when interviewed about how a race played out is great for a fan to listen to and understand .I've seen him interviewed on TV a few times when  to his great credit he is not afraid to admit it if he has made an error in his preparation  or decision making.He always appears  very humble . 

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9 hours ago, fitzy said:

At last a leading trainer actually at the coal face admits we have too many racing facilities, maybe there is some hope. Well done Pitty I hope others are listening.

There’s plenty of country clubs that cost the industry zilch they actually contribute so they must stay as they are mportant part of their local community. On the others few clubs in well populated areas are a strain on the industry.

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