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poundforpound

Saundry on AW tracks

100 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, Leggy said:

Does anyone actually know what the plan is? It doesn't sound well thought out so far and as far as I can make out there has been no cosultation with participants or experts.

It’ll be the usual plan, “I’m entitled....gimmee, gimmee, gimmee......”

It'll be devised by a small cluster group ( the result will thus be a cluster fuck ) made up of accountants who’ve raced a 10% share in a horse once, lawyers from Russell McVeigh ( who’ll do to the industry what they do to their interns ) and a bunch of polys from the 3.5% party who’ll be looking for back handers, and helicopter rides.

Keep your expectations low Leggy.....and you’re probably still aiming a bit high.....

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8 hours ago, Leggy said:

Yeah, I used to start horses for Michael but I think the only remaining Tapeta track in the US is at his place in Maryland? They've stuck with the synthetic at Turfway and maybe Arlington Park .... haven't been there for a couple of years. Far as I know the rest have all been torn up. There's some reasonable evidence that they are safer, but the other maintenance and acceptability issues pretty much make them a non-goer. If they are going to try any such thing here other than a Strathayr or similar, hopefully they'll test one first for a few years before wasting money on any others.

Golden Gate still Tapeta , plus it's been put in at Newcastle and on re laid Wolverhampton  in UK.  Michael Dickenson must have been good to work with, to bring back Da Hoss for a second BC mile after all that time off and to train first five in Cheltenham Gold Cup a pretty diverse set of achievements for a CV. 

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45 minutes ago, Red Rum said:

Golden Gate still Tapeta , plus it's been put in at Newcastle and on re laid Wolverhampton  in UK.  Michael Dickenson must have been good to work with, to bring back Da Hoss for a second BC mile after all that time off and to train first five in Cheltenham Gold Cup a pretty diverse set of achievements for a CV. 

Yeahh Michael was awesome to work with. Won with one I started over two miles first up. Remarkable horseman. Learned heaps from him. Not so sure about his Tapeta tracks though.

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Things will simply be done badly again unless those at the top actually listen to those that know. Tapeta is average, poly track is average, Kentucky dirt is average. Horses break down, its not right and that doesn't even get to the point where is it interesting to watch and good to bet on. 

In all of these conversations very little is said about Strathyr. Why not? Looks like the goods to me when comparing the others IF you want all weather racing.

Then comes the overall design....not the surface or technology but the actual course  architecture. Do you do something half arsed or something for the future generations. No doubt the fuck wits running racing who think they know everything but actually know very little (and this isn't everyone in the industry....just those who pretend to know everything and have convinced themselves that they do), will sell the others who know very little that the best track configuration can be seen in Australia because that's all they think they know.

I'll say it 1000 times, look to the future. Don't look to mediocre. These tracks should have the potential to have 30 horses racing against each other. That gives the betting a chance to be better than good, but be great. Heaven forbid the day that our breeding numbers get up again and we start breeding top class horses again in numbers. Having a 16m wide track is soooo short sighted that that notion comes from people who don't understand betting fully. That's like saying a two lane road out of Auckland will be fine in 10 years time.

And what about these courses? Shouldn't they be multiple entertainment centers so that the clubs and the industry can exploit entertainment, tourism, leveraged use events and the like?

I know they'll fuck it up because there is not enough wide spread consultation with people who just might come up with cracking ideas that make the system work to its fullest potential. It'll be the same old morons bullshitting the same old rhetoric in an attempt to prove their worth. This isn't everyone in the industry, just the same ones that have continuity in their own malformed, mis-informed, delusional opinions that have proven to be incorrect in the past.

The welfare of the horse should come first. They can't object to the rubbish that they are dished up with by the pricks that are lazy, complacent and mediocre. 

 

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8 hours ago, Berri said:

Things will simply be done badly again unless those at the top actually listen to those that know. Tapeta is average, poly track is average, Kentucky dirt is average. Horses break down, its not right and that doesn't even get to the point where is it interesting to watch and good to bet on. 

In all of these conversations very little is said about Strathyr. Why not? Looks like the goods to me when comparing the others IF you want all weather racing.

Then comes the overall design....not the surface or technology but the actual course  architecture. Do you do something half arsed or something for the future generations. No doubt the fuck wits running racing who think they know everything but actually know very little (and this isn't everyone in the industry....just those who pretend to know everything and have convinced themselves that they do), will sell the others who know very little that the best track configuration can be seen in Australia because that's all they think they know.

I'll say it 1000 times, look to the future. Don't look to mediocre. These tracks should have the potential to have 30 horses racing against each other. That gives the betting a chance to be better than good, but be great. Heaven forbid the day that our breeding numbers get up again and we start breeding top class horses again in numbers. Having a 16m wide track is soooo short sighted that that notion comes from people who don't understand betting fully. That's like saying a two lane road out of Auckland will be fine in 10 years time.

And what about these courses? Shouldn't they be multiple entertainment centers so that the clubs and the industry can exploit entertainment, tourism, leveraged use events and the like?

I know they'll fuck it up because there is not enough wide spread consultation with people who just might come up with cracking ideas that make the system work to its fullest potential. It'll be the same old morons bullshitting the same old rhetoric in an attempt to prove their worth. This isn't everyone in the industry, just the same ones that have continuity in their own malformed, mis-informed, delusional opinions that have proven to be incorrect in the past.

The welfare of the horse should come first. They can't object to the rubbish that they are dished up with by the pricks that are lazy, complacent and mediocre. 

 

Agood post. The one thing that strikes you when you visit some of the world’s better tracks is the “width”. Longchamp and The Curragh come to my mind as very wide. In the Southern Hemisphere, I think Flemington would have to be one of the wider tracks. 

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As an aside , hasn't Doomben done an amazing job, racing practically every Saturday after the Eagle Farm debacle.

I know they have lost a couple of meetings , was there last Oct when a meeting was canned after 3 races or so , and it had just never stopped raining all day.

I can't for the life of me understand why Ellerslie , during it's "closed season" will spend $6 million on new tie up stalls and what was it on their track - 300-600k ? 

Isn't this arse about face for starters.

For the Industry to go forward , your #1 Club has to have the #1 Track in the country.

Remembering the fish rots first from the head down ....

Ellerslie should at the least be able to and more significantly , race at least EVERY 2 weeks - all year round. 

Cheers

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So, Cambridge is the Waikato option? So it will be just a training track with no actual punting? For me that would be a relief, to be honest. Having horses alternating between turf and artificial would make punting more difficult, would it not? Would big players be as confident to bet if form is on turf then the horse lines up on artificial. What is the experience overseas? Do the artificial tracks in Oz have as much turnover as the turf ones? 

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For 4-5 months of the year in NZ when the sun is shining and the tracks are Good, our racing is superb.

But the cold, hard facts is that for most of the rest of the year our racing is crap, and an incredibly poor betting medium. I read recently where our biggest market, Australia, had a noticeable dip in turnover on NZ recently.

As a punter, I cannot remember the last time I had a good bet on a NZ race conducted on a wet track. For me, Singapore is looking a promising option and the all-weather racing there is very appealing - consistent form, reliable results. Only negative is around the integrity of the racing there.

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1 hour ago, berzerk said:

As a punter, I cannot remember the last time I had a good bet on a NZ race conducted on a wet track. For me, Singapore is looking a promising option and the all-weather racing there is very appealing - consistent form, reliable results. Only negative is around the integrity of the racing there.

But if you have horses alternating between wet and muddy turf tracks and all weather tracks, the form will be more inconsistent than it is now. How can you assess a horse that has won by 10 lengths on a boggy Trentham and is about to race on an Awapuni all-weather for the first time?

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11 minutes ago, Peter Harrop said:

But if you have horses alternating between wet and muddy turf tracks and all weather tracks, the form will be more inconsistent than it is now. How can you assess a horse that has won by 10 lengths on a boggy Trentham and is about to race on an Awapuni all-weather for the first time?

But then again, I guess some astute punters may be able to take advantage of the uncertainty and find value in other runners ...

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What happens Peter is, over a short period of time a pool of horses builds that accepts the AW tracks and race accordingly......look, when you get a race at Geelong especially and the fav is say 5-4 and the next in betting is 4-1 and it happens, often......you will find generally that the short priced fav has won or run well on that surface.....thus, you can back with confidence that fav and you will find mostly they run to expectations......punters will follow AW form, and Geelong is a different surface to what they put in at Pakenham. You need to be careful with that.

Sunshine Coast is also different, but using the rule of thumb, never back a horse first up on the AW track. wait and watch, the tracks have been the salvation of racing in UK, the staff lay offs for their winter break have almost ceased, owners and trainers can still maintain an income stream and the punter get's something to bet on......

Let's see what transpires, but at least one track at Cambridge should be a priority, Riccarton seems to have no trouble running their winter programs, either their surface is superior to anywhere else in NZ or their curator far better at his craft.......

IMO of course.

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On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 10:38 PM, Peter Harrop said:

So, Cambridge is the Waikato option? So it will be just a training track with no actual punting? For me that would be a relief, to be honest. Having horses alternating between turf and artificial would make punting more difficult, would it not? Would big players be as confident to bet if form is on turf then the horse lines up on artificial. What is the experience overseas? Do the artificial tracks in Oz have as much turnover as the turf ones? 

If they put it in at Cambridge then there would have to be racing on it otherwise it doesnt serve the reason why they are looking at putting these tracks in. The trouble is if it goes to Cambridge it not only a track they need but also Stands buildings carparks alot of extra expense

 

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10 hours ago, army said:

If they put it in at Cambridge then there would have to be racing on it otherwise it doesnt serve the reason why they are looking at putting these tracks in. The trouble is if it goes to Cambridge it not only a track they need but also Stands buildings carparks alot of extra expense

 

If thats the case, which venues will give up meetings (or close) to accommodate racing at Cambridge? That would have to put Te Awamutu, Te Aroha, Matamata in danger??

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10 hours ago, army said:

If they put it in at Cambridge then there would have to be racing on it otherwise it doesnt serve the reason why they are looking at putting these tracks in. The trouble is if it goes to Cambridge it not only a track they need but also Stands buildings carparks alot of extra expense

 

I can understand fully from a trainers view point why Cambridge would be the preferred option. If, however, the money is coming from the tax payer funded regional development fund, then Cambridge is NOT a town that needs regional development assistance. It probably has one of the highest per capita incomes in the country. There are a number of towns in the Waikato which have declined under successive governments in the last 30 years which would benefit more, eg Paeroa, Otorohanga, Te Aroha, - in my opinion. Ok, the horse trainers are choking on their weetbix, but the purpose of the fund is regional development isn't it? In the central districts Woodville looks ideal, ie another town which has died in the last 30 years. You could also put Foxton in the same category. As for Rangiora,- along with Rolleston, this place has "boomed" since the earthquakes, so again, does it need regional development assistance supplied by the taxpayer?

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Woodville is an odd choice. A dormitory town for workers in Palmerston North and a dormitory for cheap renters. With the new highway not to be finished before 2024, one wonders what economic activity will be left there by then. Local population is enough for a few meetings a year but will need to attract visitors if many more are planned.

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I don't think a towns population or amount of visitors would have any revelance really. It is just a going to be a racing track where off track betting is going to be the main focus I would think. Set it up for TV, all the different camera angles and sectional timing available. Woodville would seem a good location as central to both coasts of the CD. 

In saying that I can't see it being there. 

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1 hour ago, Aaron Bidlake said:

I don't think a towns population or amount of visitors would have any revelance really. It is just a going to be a racing track where off track betting is going to be the main focus I would think. Set it up for TV, all the different camera angles and sectional timing available. Woodville would seem a good location as central to both coasts of the CD. 

In saying that I can't see it being there. 

I do love the Woodville track -always a good sole of grass in summer....however in Winter, I don’t think these poor souls see the sun for months..it’s always fogged in...so depressing ☹️  Plus the Gorge fiasco has hit the community hard.   It just think how many fabulous horses were trained here...so nothing wrong with the track 

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An all weather track without accompanying training facilities will not work. The 2 largest training venues are at Matamata and Cambridge. Cambridge has the advantage of 2 training tracks. If the right hand track was used as the basis for an all weather track and a boutique  grandstand was built on Racecourse road accompanied by under track access to parking in the centre, a superb complex would result.  Get off your backsides NZTR and Cambridge Jockey Club and make something like the foregoing happen.

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57 minutes ago, eastern whipbird said:

An all weather track without accompanying training facilities will not work.

I don't get that ew. They should certainly be close to the main horse populations and training centres, but why at the same venue?

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1 hour ago, scooby3051 said:

I personally think if they go away from Strathayr its doomed for failure...too many risks and unknowns with weather, and other things ...hope they get it right for everyones sake.

I'm still perplexed as to where this idea of synthetic tracks has emerged from. The article referred to in the opening post cites Saundry as saying "The minister has been supportive of synthetic tracks in the New Zealand First racing policy."    However, there is no mention of AWTs, let alone synthetic tracks, in the NZF election policy. Saundry also seems to be talking about them more as necessary for training, trials and jumpouts than for racing. I don't really get it. I wouldn't want to race on one at least for a year or two until I'd had a chance to assess it's performance and I probably wouldn't want to trial or jump out a horse on one either when we generally have good turf facilities available for that. Something doesn't add up.

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