malcyboy 0 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 I can't say I always agree with Mr Laws but in reading his article in the Sunday Times I must say well done and about time it was said!! The man had the guts to say what no doubt a lot are thinking. The people who don't like what he said are no doubt those of the PC brigade who are creaming it off the system. It is time it was said and time to do something about it instead of blaming Governments and agencies. The buck has to stop at the families and their welfare,druggie lifestyles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
teletubby 1 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 no one agrees with him any more... and without reading his article i shouldn't even comment.. but lets face it.. I am not P.C, I don't cream the system,but yes i do blame the agencies... and with reason..i am currently helping people under the banner of ..fight for mens rights etc.. men that can't see their children because they have been inpounded like dogs by cyf..i've seen cyf in action first hand and have taken them to task..the buck does not always stop with the families..mr laws should know all about agencies.. his wife beat him up and from memory he was a pig towards her... and here he is telling the nation what he thinks.. well i think the man is a first class jerk.... wife beater adulter...and for the records i don't touch drugs .. and lifestyle on the welfare isn't flash..most of us would change it if we could..some have no option... you and mr laws and others may feel different.... well thats good.. we hope that one day you have no need for the welfare system... cause it will be a rude awakening.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STRAIGHT STRIKE 37 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 we all know it,but most are too weak to stand up,speak up and face the issue head on,or its easier to brush it under the carpet. Good on you Lawsy,you stand up and tell it like it is,something that is missing in many of todays society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nahla 1 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 laws = legend.When will maori as a race stop trying so hard to milk the government and actually have a look at themselves as parents,its an ugly picture.Of course its my fault that they bash and raise their children poorly cause a hundred and fifty years ago they lost some land....im sorry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAP 0 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 I am not sorry! Maori should be treated the same as any other race. There should be absolutley no special treatment because of their percieved injustices of 150 years ago. They should think themselves lucky that they were better treated than most indiginous people that were colonised or defeated in a war by Europeans. They need to shape up. get off their a.... .assimilate in the comunity and be prepared to work for a living.Welfare should be a safety net not a way of life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philocon 1 Report post Posted January 3, 2011 no one agrees with him any more... and without reading his article i shouldn't even comment.. but lets face it.. I am not P.C, I don't cream the system,but yes i do blame the agencies... and with reason..i am currently helping people under the banner of ..fight for mens rights etc.. men that can't see their children because they have been inpounded like dogs by cyf..i've seen cyf in action first hand and have taken them to task..the buck does not always stop with the families..mr laws should know all about agencies.. his wife beat him up and from memory he was a pig towards her... and here he is telling the nation what he thinks.. well i think the man is a first class jerk.... wife beater adulter...and for the records i don't touch drugs .. and lifestyle on the welfare isn't flash..most of us would change it if we could..some have no option... you and mr laws and others may feel different.... well thats good.. we hope that one day you have no need for the welfare system... cause it will be a rude awakening.... One of the few ocassions I agree with you teletubby although not on all of what you say but in regard to laws generalisations and self righteous raves. Mind you I know little of Laws personal life so wouldn't comment on that but you seem to have a bit more info there. I had heard of the stories of his problems in that area though. The sensationalist publicity seeking style he uses doesn't do anything to address the problem of child abuse either. Blaming the problem on Maori is simplistic and attacking an entire family when not all of them are involved, doesn't help. Just like his comments on beneficiaries. Simple finger-pointing doesn't address the issue one bit. The reality is that child abuse is thankfully like most crime a tiny minority of the population and just because of its repugnance is not a reason to get hysterical and allow that to cloud a reasoned approach to the solutions. Maori are over-represented in a number of negative social statistics, including prison populations, poor health and mortality rates, educational under-achievement, etc. The problem is better solved by asking why and how we start to resolve it. Economic status is a huge a huge factor in child abuse statistics and Maori figure disproportionately higher here there is no doubt. NZ's percentage of this offending is far too high but it is not purely a Maori problem as some like to think for although stats indicate Maori make up 60% of it that still leaves 40% of the rest of us. Besides most of us only hear of the worst high profile shock horror ones that gain publicity and many others slip past because they aren't sensational enough to make headline news but just as serious nevertheless. It's a problem that the whole community must face up to not just Maori alone The likes of Law's rantings while maybe satisfying the indignation and self righteousness of some for a few minutes, don't achieve much else. I see no practical and workable solutions he is proposing other then finger pointing and name calling. At least you are involved in groups that are trying to do something about issues whether one agrees with you or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Noblet 2 Report post Posted January 3, 2011 One of the few ocassions I agree with you teletubby although not on all of what you say but in regard to laws generalisations and self righteous raves. Mind you I know little of Laws personal life so wouldn't comment on that but you seem to have a bit more info there. I had heard of the stories of his problems in that area though. The sensationalist publicity seeking style he uses doesn't do anything to address the problem of child abuse either. Blaming the problem on Maori is simplistic and attacking an entire family when not all of them are involved, doesn't help. Just like his comments on beneficiaries. Simple finger-pointing doesn't address the issue one bit. The reality is that child abuse is thankfully like most crime a tiny minority of the population and just because of its repugnance is not a reason to get hysterical and allow that to cloud a reasoned approach to the solutions. Maori are over-represented in a number of negative social statistics, including prison populations, poor health and mortality rates, educational under-achievement, etc. The problem is better solved by asking why and how we start to resolve it. Economic status is a huge a huge factor in child abuse statistics and Maori figure disproportionately higher here there is no doubt. NZ's percentage of this offending is far too high but it is not purely a Maori problem as some like to think for although stats indicate Maori make up 60% of it that still leaves 40% of the rest of us. Besides most of us only hear of the worst high profile shock horror ones that gain publicity and many others slip past because they aren't sensational enough to make headline news but just as serious nevertheless. It's a problem that the whole community must face up to not just Maori alone The likes of Law's rantings while maybe satisfying the indignation and self righteousness of some for a few minutes, don't achieve much else. I see no practical and workable solutions he is proposing other then finger pointing and name calling. At least you are involved in groups that are trying to do something about issues whether one agrees with you or not. A typical "Philocon" posting. Phil,why do you try to shift the wrongdoings of dysfunctional Maori families onto everyone else? ( especially the "white settler") They do have a higher %'age of offending and here's some news for you - nobody except themselves,made them do it,and quite often whole families can be blamed,as they close rank and claim "cultural protection". There should be no differences re the law and government agencies for different groups. The rest of New Zealand owe them nothing,so why should they receive special treatment,and they do get special treatment with various welfare programmes having been formulated for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STRAIGHT STRIKE 37 Report post Posted January 3, 2011 The disadvantaged,the walked over,the poor devils. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblunt 334 Report post Posted January 3, 2011 Michael Laws' approach to correcting social problems is a name and shame style. Name Maori as being irresponsible and dysfunctional and hope that that pressure will force them to change their 'evil' ways. It doesn't work for recidivist drunk drivers or paedophiles and I struggle to see how it can help here. In the case of paedophiles all it does is complicate things by exposing others with the same name to attack. Similar result happens here, as all Maori and all of Maoridom ends up being criticised. Surely we're trying to reduce infant mortality... not to further create division within communities by labelling one ethnicity as inferior. This really is all this attitude achieves. Michael laws is a sensationalist shock-jock and socially divisive. He is the irresponsible one with a litany of dysfunctional episodes in his own private life. If you think he "tells it like it is" that's cool but i'd ask you to consider whether you want to save the lives of children or to simply give you more ammo for bagging those bloody Maoris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblunt 334 Report post Posted January 3, 2011 *re the above.. replace 'infant mortality' with child abuse. Entirely separate issues Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 Michael Laws' approach to correcting social problems is a name and shame style. Name Maori as being irresponsible and dysfunctional and hope that that pressure will force them to change their 'evil' ways. It doesn't work for recidivist drunk drivers or paedophiles and I struggle to see how it can help here. In the case of paedophiles all it does is complicate things by exposing others with the same name to attack. Similar result happens here, as all Maori and all of Maoridom ends up being criticised. Surely we're trying to reduce infant mortality... not to further create division within communities by labelling one ethnicity as inferior. This really is all this attitude achieves. Michael laws is a sensationalist shock-jock and socially divisive. He is the irresponsible one with a litany of dysfunctional episodes in his own private life. If you think he "tells it like it is" that's cool but i'd ask you to consider whether you want to save the lives of children or to simply give you more ammo for bagging those bloody Maoris Ok then, whats the answer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblunt 334 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 Ok then, whats the answer? Indeed, a bloody good question. Pretty bloody tough to answer though. I can see what doesn't work: alienation of minority groups, gross generalisations of entire cultures. Not to mention cutting off benefits. If you're backed into a corner, with no money, can't afford food for the kids, let alone pay the rent, and to top it all off have a drug and alcohol addiction you're sure as hell not going to manage things better by having your benefit cut off. What will help is an understanding of the reasons so many people in NZ are underprivileged. It's not because an entire ethnicity is lazy i can assure you that. There have been others throughout history have argued that one race is inferior to others. Assuming we all have the same opportunities in life is just not realistic. We need easy access to drop in centres and support groups which aren't run by the people whom affected groups feel alienated by but by people who the can relate to. Which is why more money should be thrown at those groups who are over-represented in the negative social statistics. Not less Although this analogy is also a rather gross generalisation which i'm not particularly proud of, if you have two children and one is in poorer health than the other, more of your resources would naturally be directed to boosting the health of the child in poorer health. If we truly want Maori to be evenly represented in social statistics, more resources ought to be provided. Oh, and it wouldn't hurt if Maori leaders and those working their butts off to improve the situation got the same media exposure as Michael Laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nahla 1 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 blunt the cant afford food for the kids is a myth,how about cut all benefits to gang members,associates or gang moles.And when sentencing comes up for these winners any gang connections doubles the sentence,lets face it a huge % of these scum comitting these crimes are gang connected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Properispomenon 1 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 Agreed, nahla... New Zealand has a pretty good Social Welfare system - if you look at it from the point of view that it is meant to provide the necessities for a short period of time - and I am perfectly happy that (some of) my taxes fund that system. But it is curious, isn't it?, that so much of New Zealand's crime is committed by beneficiaries who are unwell enough to work but who are well enough to walk to and from court, who are to be seen puffing on cigarettes both on their way in and on the way out, who seem to have committed their crimes under the influences of either alcohol or P... Some expensive habits, I am trying to say, for folk who are so down on their luck... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 bblunt is a cuzzie bro himself and his attitude is no surprise really. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblunt 334 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 Yes most crime is gang connected but what will doubling sentences achieve? Double the burden on the taxpayer and make them even less likely to assimilate successfully into society upon return. I agree some of these guys are a write-off but not all of them. As an aside, what did banning gang patches do for Whanganui? Tourism numbers through the roof? How about employment? Great way to attract bright young talent by defining your town as gangland. Putting the current crop of bad asses to the side for a moment and looking for solutions i'll offer my thoughts to assist the next generation coming through. I'd add to my previous post (to really get the blood boiling in those who believe the current system's fine but all we need to do is come down harder on them damned Maoris) that we also need more incentives to keep Maori in schools such as classes in te reo, kapa haka, teaching of Maori worldviews and true NZ history classes, as well as more training and job schemes, university scholarships which target Maori and a health system which recognises different cultures rather than a one size fits all approach which alienates all those who are not of the paleskin persuasion. For a start Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcyboy 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 In parts I agree with you Razor. We do need to look at minority groups and offer them something to make them want to change but why does it always have to be the taxpayers money that has to do it. There has to be a bit of give and take here and surely with all the treaty settlements given Maori can give something back especially when it can help their own. In a real world we would all be equal but sadly in NZ this isn't so. On an aside it was good to see that WINZ have cancelled the benefit of some druggie ex gang member who has been milking the system for the past 26 years and no doubt there are a few more out there that we taxpayers have been supporting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis 0 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 Yes most crime is gang connected but what will doubling sentences achieve? Double the burden on the taxpayer and make them even less likely to assimilate successfully into society upon return. I agree some of these guys are a write-off but not all of them. As an aside, what did banning gang patches do for Whanganui? Tourism numbers through the roof? How about employment? Great way to attract bright young talent by defining your town as gangland. Putting the current crop of bad asses to the side for a moment and looking for solutions i'll offer my thoughts to assist the next generation coming through. I'd add to my previous post (to really get the blood boiling in those who believe the current system's fine but all we need to do is come down harder on them damned Maoris) that we also need more incentives to keep Maori in schools such as classes in te reo, kapa haka, teaching of Maori worldviews and true NZ history classes, as well as more training and job schemes, university scholarships which target Maori and a health system which recognises different cultures rather than a one size fits all approach which alienates all those who are not of the paleskin persuasion. For a start All you are suggesting is what is pretty much happening at the moment. Maori have been offered incentives for years, but quite frankly it has been a waste of taxpayer money. The softly softly incentivise them approach has only produced a certain amount of Maori who are arrogant, have chips on there shoulders, and a sense of entitlement. At the end of the day the Maori underclass will only rise if they start valuing education and develop a work ethic and wean themselves of drugs, booze and welfare. And oh, get rid of the overt staunch, macho attitude. How they do this I don't know, but killing them with kindness clearly hasn't worked. I would also ask where is the Maori leadership? If some of them who ponced around in suits and BMW's with European names put as much effort into the real MAori issues as opposed to trying to get more and larger Treaty settlements, then all NZ would be better off. But what pays better is the answer to that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nahla 1 Report post Posted January 5, 2011 b blunt i see the doubling of sentences for gang members has two major benefits ,first as a deterant to young teenage mainly maori males from joining these groups knowing that a huge portion of their lives could be behind bars and secondly the cost to taxpayers would be no greater outside we pay for their benefits and crimes,think of the number of children less that would be brought into world only to be killed ,because they are locked up.Ive never been on the dole in my life i got off my ass and went working at a young age ,limit the dole to 6 months then you are on your own.hardline maybe...but what we are doing now doesnt work.it may force these guys to go get jobs...fill er up sir,or you want fries with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2011 I have a mate who has a son at Victoria University studying Law. This is an example of how the system 'panders' to Maori. Say you have 101 students enrolled in first year law, and ALL of those 101 students want to do second year law, but there's only 100 spots available, then these are the qualifications you have to meet. 10% of the class for second year law MUST be reserved for Maori and Pacifica students (10 students). All OTHER students (Pakeha, Asian, African, etc etc) must have a minimum of a B+ average across their three 1st year law papers in order to qualify automatically for 2nd year law. (A B+ average is 70-75%). So let's look at a hypothetical situation. Say there are 91 'Other' students, and 10 Maori and Pacifica students. Further, let's imagine that of the 91 'others', 90 of them all achieve at least a B+ average across their 1st year papers, with the remaining individual achieving a 'B-' across his/her 3 papers. Let's also imagine that of the 10 Maori and Pacifica students, 5 achieved B+'s, while the other 5 achieved C minus's. Well under the University regulations, the 'other' student with the B minus, would miss out to a Maori or Pacifica student with worse grades. And people wonder why there are racist views in this country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblunt 334 Report post Posted January 6, 2011 All you are suggesting is what is pretty much happening at the moment. True, but i'm suggesting we need more of it as opposed to less as others ascribe (see King above). Besides, this is a thread about Michael Laws and i can't see anything in what he's suggesting that wasn't bandied about by colonial settlers 200 years ago. i see the doubling of sentences for gang members has two major benefits ,first as a deterant to young teenage mainly maori males from joining these groups knowing that a huge portion of their lives could be behind bars The question ought to be why all these young Maori want to join gangs in the first place. Jail is not a deterrent by the way. They love it Well under the University regulations, the 'other' student with the B minus, would miss out to a Maori or Pacifica student with worse grades I agree, on the face of it that doesn't seem fair. Certainly not to the kid who misses out. But you need to look at the bigger picture. Equitable outcomes inevitably requires inequitable processes. We're trying to balance social and employment statistics. You can't bang on about Maori being over-represented in jails and on the dole etc and in the same breath discredit incentives to remedy the situation In my opinion (but you knew that) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2011 Originally Posted by THE KING Well under the University regulations, the 'other' student with the B minus, would miss out to a Maori or Pacifica student with worse grades I agree, on the face of it that doesn't seem fair. Certainly not to the kid who misses out. But you need to look at the bigger picture. Equitable outcomes inevitably requires inequitable processes. We're trying to balance social and employment statistics. You can't bang on about Maori being over-represented in jails and on the dole etc and in the same breath discredit incentives to remedy the situation In my opinion (but you knew that) Look, creating a situation where a student of one race gets ahead of another student, regardless of academic results, is asking for trouble. If Maori and Pacifica students need funding for extra tutelage to get them prepared for any exams/assignments, then I'd be all for that at the expense of their current policy. At the moment, Maori and Pacifica students studying law at Vic Uni have absolutely no incentive to extend themselves if they know that they are guaranteed a spot in 2nd year law. And these kids aren't stupid. They know the system, run by liberals like yourself, will bend over backwards to assist them and that it will always be the case whilst we continue to take this namby-pamby approach. The sooner they're made aware of the benefits of hard work, followed by more hard work, then the better off they'll be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblunt 334 Report post Posted January 6, 2011 Look, creating a situation where a student of one race gets ahead of another student, regardless of academic results, is asking for trouble. If Maori and Pacifica students need funding for extra tutelage to get them prepared for any exams/assignments, then I'd be all for that at the expense of their current policy. At the moment, Maori and Pacifica students studying law at Vic Uni have absolutely no incentive to extend themselves if they know that they are guaranteed a spot in 2nd year law. And these kids aren't stupid. They know the system, run by liberals like yourself, will bend over backwards to assist them and that it will always be the case whilst we continue to take this namby-pamby approach. The sooner they're made aware of the benefits of hard work, followed by more hard work, then the better off they'll be. Why is it "asking for trouble"? "One race" has been getting ahead of others for years. A few years of balancing the books is all we're asking for. You're dreaming, or exaggerating if you think they're "guaranteed a spot in 2nd year". And if you think the kids who "know the system" with "no incentive to extend themselves" will get through 2nd year law and beyond you're even more delusional. The ones who benefit are the 'nearly theres'; the ones who just need a bit of help because they haven't had the silver spoon, the golden handshake and the crystal palace". It's not a bunch of bludgers who get through as you seem to think Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nahla 1 Report post Posted January 6, 2011 b blunt nobody likes jail,nobody.They join gangs because they are weak of mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2011 A few years of balancing the books is all we're asking for. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. The only way forward for Maori is if they breed with races other than their own. That way they'll have at least one parent with a hard work ethic and a sense of knowing what it takes to achieve in life. And there's only one race in NZ getting the golden handshake and it sure as hell ain't the white one! You're a 'gold medal' apologist...of that there's no doubt! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...