Grey Stallion / chestnut mare

[Graeme 0]

What possible colour could resultant foal be with this mating? Can't remember all the chestnut/bay gene whatever.

[Pepper 0]

It depends a lot on what the gray is hiding.

The chestnut will be ee so can only pass on a red gene but could carry a bay gene as well though this will only show up if the gray has a black gene to pass on.

If the gray is black they will be EE or Ee. If EE you will get a black or bay foal 100% of the time with a 50% chance of gray on top of that. IF the gray is Ee then you have a 50% chance of bay/black and a 50% chance of chestnut again with a 50% chance of gray over the top.

[Graeme 0]

Now I'm really confused!Foal was born last night.It's dark brown or black.Is that 50/50 chance of being a grey?Never had a brown foal from a ch mare before.Only ch or bay.

[pepawish 0]

Chestnut mare has thrown almost only chestnut foals out of eight. Throws brown to Danske, and now has thrown an almost black foal to Zed and he's a bay. Are the dark colours dominate like eyes, brown over blue, and what about that white Zabeel filly. Is it not to do with pigmentation ( a gene not throwing colour in the white ones case)

[Pepper 0]

Horses have two base colours Red (ee) or Black (Ee or EE) all other colours come about due to other genes that modify the base colours. Black is dominate to red as shown above where one black gene will ensure a black or bay colouring.

Bay is the modifier Agouti this is represented by AA (homozygous for Bay) Aa (bay but carrying non bay) aa (no bay)

For finding what colours a foal can be when one parent is gray you need to know what the colour is under the gray

Currently the actual genes or modifiers for brown have not been actually identified. The common theroy is that it involves either Sooty or Pangre (spelling). But brown is really black with a modifier.

Your mare is ee (chestnut) for a brown foal the sire had to be either EE or Ee under the gray. All EE means is that they are homozygous for black (will never throw a chestnut foal). Your foal has a 50/50 chance of going gray but if she will she should show gray goggles (best description) around the eyes from a very early age.

The white zabeel filly is generally believed to have come about via the Sabino gene. Sabino is thought to be the cause of the majority of white markings on horses. The extent of the white depends on the um size of the expression of the gene. It is thought that a horse like the white filly is showing a maximum expression of the sabino gene. There are white thoroughbreds like this in US. I would expect that there will be a few dark hairs on her probably around her ears or mane.

[pepawish 0]

that is very interesting stuff, when I did my nursing training we learnt all that Aa Bb BB AA, ( there are different letters too but not going to drag my lecture stuff out now)with genes for diseases. What I'm keen about is where do you find the above about the colours. Can you let me know. Thanks in advance Tina

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Without getting too technical about it, the colour options depend on the colours of the extended parents too. Some simple rules of thumb:

To get a grey - one parent MUST be grey. [This is not saying you WILL get one - just that it is not possible to get a grey without at least one parent being grey.]

Further to that, if a horse carries the grey gene - it WILL be grey. Grey is NOT a recessive gene.

Chestnut is recessive. [that means a horse can carry the gene but not actually BE chestnut.] That is why two horses [neither of which is chestnut] can sometimes produce a chestnut. You will usually find in these cases that a gran-parent was chestnut.

Two chestnuts always produce a chestnut.

Fascinating stuff aye!

[Juno 0]

Last year I sent a bay mare to Danroad (bay) and got a chestnut foal. Odds against, but could happen.

This year I sent a chestnut mare to Danroad and got a black/grey (can't tell which) foal!

Can the geneticists tell me whether it will be a black or grey foal based on the allelles?

[Rich 1]

check out these links:

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/tbcolor1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_(horse)

http://www.kolumbus.fi/sarakontu/link/equlinks.html

[Graeme 0]

I new about the ch gene.I sent a bay to a bay and got a ch.Both must have carried a ch gene.(Hiya Rich.Long time no see)This gets interesting by the minute.

[ORACLESTUD 0]

hence appaloosa breeders not wanting to put their stallions over chestnut mares.

I had a chestnit mare. Put her under a grey stallion. Foal was bay but by 7 months was grey.

[Graeme 0]

Horses have two base colours Red (ee) or Black (Ee or EE) all other colours come about due to other genes that modify the base colours. Black is dominate to red as shown above where one black gene will ensure a black or bay colouring.

Bay is the modifier Agouti this is represented by AA (homozygous for Bay) Aa (bay but carrying non bay) aa (no bay)

For finding what colours a foal can be when one parent is gray you need to know what the colour is under the gray

Currently the actual genes or modifiers for brown have not been actually identified. The common theroy is that it involves either Sooty or Pangre (spelling). But brown is really black with a modifier.

Your mare is ee (chestnut) for a brown foal the sire had to be either EE or Ee under the gray. All EE means is that they are homozygous for black (will never throw a chestnut foal). Your foal has a 50/50 chance of going gray but if she will she should show gray goggles (best description) around the eyes from a very early age.

The white zabeel filly is generally believed to have come about via the Sabino gene. Sabino is thought to be the cause of the majority of white markings on horses. The extent of the white depends on the um size of the expression of the gene. It is thought that a horse like the white filly is showing a maximum expression of the sabino gene. There are white thoroughbreds like this in US. I would expect that there will be a few dark hairs on her probably around her ears or mane.

Pepper

Have found out that the stallion was first registered as a brown before going grey.

The mare has a lot of white flecking through her coat as did her mother.Don't know whether that is of any significance.

[Rich 1]

Hi Graeme, have been around LOL

[Pepper 0]

hence appaloosa breeders not wanting to put their stallions over chestnut mares.

I had a chestnit mare. Put her under a grey stallion. Foal was bay but by 7 months was grey.

Um hate to contradict you here but they do not carry a gray gene.

If a horse has the gray gene they will be gray it cannot be hidden.

Gray is a modifier to all colours and it is a progressive thing. Horses will be born their base colour and if they carry gray they will gradually gray out until they are white (if they live long enough). The speed the horse grays out does differ.

The reason your foal went gray was that the stallion provided the gray gene.

Graeme your filly still only has a 50/50 chance of graying. Keep an eye on her and if she is going to gray should show the gray hairs around the eyes and muzzle very early on.

The white flecking is often associated with the Sabino gene or can be Rabicino. Rabicino is always associated with the coon tail (white bands at top of tail) and is usually white flecking across the barrel flank of a horse.

http://www.equinecolor.com/ This is a very good site about horse colours but I can't access it from work. had a very good forum with people willing to answer questions.

[Deep South 0]

The white zabeel filly is generally believed to have come about via the Sabino gene. Sabino is thought to be the cause of the majority of white markings on horses. The extent of the white depends on the um size of the expression of the gene. It is thought that a horse like the white filly is showing a maximum expression of the sabino gene. ...

At this first link is a photo of the Zabeel filly and her chestnut dam. The filly had a red cap although it isn't clear in the photo.

http://www.thoroughbrednews.co.nz/nz/De ... &stud_id=0"

I know more about cat genetics than horse colour genetics. In cats when colour appears on the head and tail, they are called vans, can only produce bi-colours, and ***the van gene is different than the pure white gene.*** Pure whites though are usually born with a colour cap showing the color that the cat is masking. That colour cap will disappear by 8 months. Pure whites have either copper eyes, blue eyes or one of each called Odd-eyed. Deafness is associated with the blue eyes. Pure whites are not albinos. Albinos have pink eyes.

Earlier threads:

Zabeel throws a white 1

http://www.racecafe.co.nz/forum/showthread.php?t=19482&page=1&pp=10

The Grey gene theory (2 good posts here with links to colour genetics by Fordman and Owner):

http://www.racecafe.co.nz/forum/showthread.php?t=19929

Here is the article from a dead URL. I have the photo and it clearly shows the red cap. I am emailing it to the Moderator and if she wants it posted, she can post it:

"Meet Waikato's newest All White

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/waikatotimes/0,2106,3839419a6004,00.html

25 October 2006

By ESTHER HARWARD

Record-breaking stallion Zabeel pulled another fast one yesterday when a foal he had sired for a $100,000 fee was born pure white.

The new filly has impeccable breeding and will stick out like a sore thumb on the track when she makes her race debut in three years' time.

Zabeel's owner Sir Patrick Hogan said from his Cambridge Stud farm yesterday that the foal's Sydney-based owner, Rod Martin, had to pull over to the side of the road to take in the news when he called him after the 9.30am birth.

"I said: `You've got something that nobody else has got, but I'm not sure it's something anybody else would want,"' Sir Patrick said.

"I said: `You have a foal, a filly, and it's white all over.' Mr Martin asked: `Well, where did that come from?' I said: `We have no idea whatsoever."'

Zabeel's bloodline produced another pure white horse five years ago

[Deep South 0]

Correction. I sent the photo of the Zabeel filly to Annie at annie@worldnz.net.co.nz and the email bounced as "Name or service not known." If anyone knows the true email, please advise and I'll retry.

[Graeme 0]

Um hate to contradict you here but they do not carry a gray gene.

If a horse has the gray gene they will be gray it cannot be hidden.

Gray is a modifier to all colours and it is a progressive thing. Horses will be born their base colour and if they carry gray they will gradually gray out until they are white (if they live long enough). The speed the horse grays out does differ.

The reason your foal went gray was that the stallion provided the gray gene.

Graeme your filly still only has a 50/50 chance of graying. Keep an eye on her and if she is going to gray should show the gray hairs around the eyes and muzzle very early on.

The white flecking is often associated with the Sabino gene or can be Rabicino. Rabicino is always associated with the coon tail (white bands at top of tail) and is usually white flecking across the barrel flank of a horse.

http://www.equinecolor.com/ This is a very good site about horse colours but I can't access it from work. had a very good forum with people willing to answer questions.

It's actually a colt but hey! I find this very interesting.

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

hence appaloosa breeders not wanting to put their stallions over chestnut mares.

I had a chestnit mare. Put her under a grey stallion. Foal was bay but by 7 months was grey.

Appaloosa breeders have no problem breeding to Chestnuts - it is forbidden to breed to GREYS. Heaps of appaloosas are chestnuts with various white markings. As Pepper has said, your foal was a grey because one of its parents was a grey - its Sire. That's the same with every grey - at least one parent is a grey.

[Juno 0]

Just to clarify; it is not possible to get a grey foal unless one of the parents is grey?

The grey allelle is not recessive (in which case if both parents carried it there could be a 1 in 4 chance of the progeny being a homozygous recessive grey)?

[Pepper 0]

Juno I'm not quite following your post.

Gray is not recessive but dominate so yes for a foal to be gray one parent must be gray.

Gray's can carry one gray gene or be homozygous for gray.

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Just to clarify]

That's right Juno. Grey is dominant - if it is present, then the horse is a grey, and at least one parent must be grey to produce a grey foal. Instances of supposed non-grey matings producing a grey foal are rare and usually attributable to wrongly registered horses [as above ie; registered as a brown but was clearly a grey] or wrong parentage being recorded. [and grey teasers have also sometimes had some explaining to do!!! ]

[Graeme 0]

Just an update.Foal definetly going grey.Losing his coat.Grey around the eyes and his whorls are grey.

[Lloyd Vivian 742]

Yep - usually by this time it is fairly obvious that a foal will be grey. Hope it turns out a nice horse for you.

[kmhood 1]

Last year I sent a bay mare to Danroad (bay) and got a chestnut foal. Odds against, but could happen.

This year I sent a chestnut mare to Danroad and got a black/grey (can't tell which) foal!

Can the geneticists tell me whether it will be a black or grey foal based on the allelles?

Have a look at the hair roots behind the ears or under the tail - often the grey will show up there even tho the foal looks black. Often, if a grey shows up black when born it will be a different colour grey (often steel grey or whiter grey) than the ones that show grey immediatly (often with chestnut spots or even chestnut topcoat - again grey at the roots). Like bays, there are many shades overall. Same with chestnuts, from liver to quite light wishy washy chestnut. Just look at the variety of red coloured hair among humans for instance.

Agouti gene is a brindle gene in cats & dogs - shown by tabby markings with a variety of patterns - spotted, srtiped in various patterns. I didn't think the agouti gene applied to horses.

[lesley 0]

I have 3 Handsome Randsom yearlings. Chestnut Colt (from liver chestnut mare - little star on head) he is bright chestnut, white markings, socks with white ticking - quite pronounced. A Chestnut filly from straight Bay Mare (grandsire was chestnut - Vain) again white markings, white socks with a little white ticking. Black Filly only small white star - from Black Mare - no white who had a chestnut father/black mother. Just wondering where the white ticking comes from as apparently a few HR's have white ticking including a photo in the select sale of a filly which is quite pronounced.