Huey

New Stallions 2018

128 posts in this topic

13 hours ago, BruceL said:

We arent talking about a high profile stallion entering a major stud here! , and im not advocating he would be a success at all , just applauding that breeders have an opportunity on a cheap stallion that has some credentials.

No mention of South Island programming/racing etc, conpletely different topic.

A group winning son of Fastnet Rock out of a Galileo mare from a good family that has form around true G1 horses.

He is standing for $3,000 in the South Island!, South Island breeders dont have access to high profile stallions and are unlikely to, this guy gives a good option at the price especially for breed to racers.

It’s a good thing for the breeders that these options are standing in the South Island, choice is good for breeders and after the initial success from standing in the South Island of Highly Recommended , this new stallion may have some appeal to some.

 

Bruce, have a look at the recent SI sale?...it's a disaster, by plonking an average FR son down there, and offering a cheap buy in, how does that solve SI racing?...If you have a good mare, the trip north is nothing, and the completion in the NI forces studs to deal, therefore what you pay in transport is compensated by a highly competitive service fee......you say my reference to SI programming is off topic? go figure? when you breed a horse you look at the end game surely? or is that why you lot are reactive and not pro-active?......

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17 minutes ago, La Zip said:

Bruce, have a look at the recent SI sale?...it's a disaster, by plonking an average FR son down there, and offering a cheap buy in, how does that solve SI racing?...If you have a good mare, the trip north is nothing, and the completion in the NI forces studs to deal, therefore what you pay in transport is compensated by a highly competitive service fee......you say my reference to SI programming is off topic? go figure? when you breed a horse you look at the end game surely? or is that why you lot are reactive and not pro-active?......

He is a reasonable cheap option for breeders!, especially breed to racers!, 

As a breeder you like to have options , and this guy has some credentials at a cheap fee!

I’m not interested in your discussion about South Island racing, have I said anything about sales or South Island racing?

I have only stated that he has some credentials at a small fee and gives breeders in the South Island an option. Hard to argue about that?

 

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I don't understand this nonsensical crap about branding this horse as "an average son of FR" ????

Mongolian Falcon is  a G2 winner of 3 races and was in the first 3 in 7 of 9 starts. His only 2 misses were after receiving severe interference in a 2YO G1 race and then being injured in the 2000 Gns (but still running 6th). His 2 stakes placings were behind 2 individual G1 winners. By simple definition that record easily places him in the top 1% of the racing population of his generation and makes him an "elite athlete" and well deserving of an opportunity at stud. Personally I'm surprised he hasn't found a home in the North Island.

La Zip you are indeed entitled to your opinion but without any factual or logical basis to them its unlikely anyone with common sense will pay any heed. At $3000 he is sensational value and I hope he gets plenty of mares.

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FItzy my last take, if you look at MF’s record, he was trained on a beach, in the far north, he won by 5 beating Jon Snow running 1-26 and change, he finished behind Hugo on several occasions and Hugo got bashed up over in AUS rather badly when meeting better horses.

When meeting the same old in the 2000 guineas on a fast track at Riccarton he was done like a dinner, they went 1-33 and MF finished nearly 10 lengths off them, the explanation from the jock was “ better suited on softer ground””. That says it all. His prize money ? Well the reality, by the time you add up his rearing, breaking and training costs, entry fees, travel costs etc, there would be bugger all left, so, my analogy of average befits that summary.

What should happen? NZTR should recognise that Chch is a city worthy of frequent racing and good prizemoney, program better racing for the grass roots racing people in the SI, then maybe you will get owners and breeders in the NI to spread their horses around, send well bred babies down to good trainers, race for good money, on a very good track, and it’s a win win for everyone. SI breeders have the choice of sending their mares to stallions worthy of their hard earned, but they will only do that if the end game is worthy of their contribution and participation. So, really, the ball is in the court of the Petone heirachy and therein lays another story coming to a cinema near you!

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Thanks La Zip. Following your logic you obviously must think Winks is a slow good for nothing camel also given that nearly all her best races have been on rain affected tracks. 

Perhaps I’m wrong but I thought this topic was about new seasons sires and their stallion potential. I stand by my comments re MF.

:D:D:huh:

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14 hours ago, fitzy said:

Thanks La Zip. Following your logic you obviously must think Winks is a slow good for nothing camel also given that nearly all her best races have been on rain affected tracks. 

Perhaps I’m wrong but I thought this topic was about new seasons sires and their stallion potential. I stand by my comments re MF.

:D:D:huh:

Winx - not Winks - may prefer rain-affected going but she can still knock off a 33 sectional if she has to.  Big difference.

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On 4/27/2018 at 9:25 AM, Mattski said:

Yes both tick a lot of boxes. My only Q with Satono A is he won his Group 1 as a 6yr old.

Mares by which stallions will suit him?

What is wrong winning a G1 at 6? Most horses dont last that long. There a a lot of stallions that finish their racing career at 2. How do you know their offspring will last to 6?

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10 hours ago, psyc said:

What is wrong winning a G1 at 6? Most horses dont last that long. There a a lot of stallions that finish their racing career at 2. How do you know their offspring will last to 6?

Should I bring up Spirit of Boom’s race record? He won  a 10,000 as a 6yo. Also if you can go back a while, Champion Waikato Stud sire, Pompei Court, won a Group race as 6yo...and how tough were his progeny?  Agree, with the new brigade and their huge stallion deals, let’s see how the progeny of those horses race on....

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58 minutes ago, Swoopa said:

We saw this fella very briefly  last weekend at The National  Stud. I think he will suit NZ mares,all the best L A Stud

He is a quality horse. Let’s hope Northern breeders will support this well priced young stallion.  

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6 hours ago, Louise said:

I see Novara Park with Norwegian Park will stand What's the Story (Savabeel/Tall Story) $4,000 + GST

placed in an NZ Derby and a winner over 2100m & 1200m and he is standing for $4k, looks hard work to me.

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9 hours ago, Louise said:

I see Novara Park with Norwegian Park will stand What's the Story (Savabeel/Tall Story) $4,000 + GST

I remember his second dam FUN ON THE RUN,   38 starts for 18 wins , 12 seconds, 1 third and 2 fourths.

Savabeel's service fee is not listed anymore. What does POA mean? Auction? Tender?

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1 minute ago, Nasrullah said:

I remember his second dam FUN ON THE RUN,   38 starts for 18 wins , 12 seconds, 1 third and 2 fourths.

Savabeel's service fee is not listed anymore. What does POA mean? Auction? Tender?

I see on their website it says Service Fee Private.....

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Savabeel $100,000 last year and I guess private is above that now. Will be interesting to compare statistics between Sir Tristram, Zabeel and Savabeel.

Zabeel mares are amazing. Something that really works. In Australia this season so far Zabeel's progeny earnings as a broodmares sire sits at $12.8m!

Comparison below- Have used SW to runners with Savabeel likely to be around Zabeel's percentage as a few of those young runners are bound to produce SW as still only 2 or 3yos.

Sir Tristram
f:1217 r:1000 w:689 SW:130    =  SW/ Runners 13%

ZABEEL (NZ)
f:1808 r:1525 w:1108 SW:166  =  SW/ Runners 10.9%

SAVABEEL

f:1003 r:734 w:516 SW:74            =  SW/ Runners 10.1%

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1 hour ago, Nasrullah said:

Savabeel $100,000 last year and I guess private is above that now. Will be interesting to compare statistics between Sir Tristram, Zabeel and Savabeel.

Zabeel mares are amazing. Something that really works. In Australia this season so far Zabeel's progeny earnings as a broodmares sire sits at $12.8m!

Comparison below- Have used SW to runners with Savabeel likely to be around Zabeel's percentage as a few of those young runners are bound to produce SW as still only 2 or 3yos.

Sir Tristram
f:1217 r:1000 w:689 SW:130    =  SW/ Runners 13%

ZABEEL (NZ)
f:1808 r:1525 w:1108 SW:166  =  SW/ Runners 10.9%

SAVABEEL

f:1003 r:734 w:516 SW:74            =  SW/ Runners 10.1%

Don't you think Zabeel and Sir T , did it more in Aus than Savabeel has to date? He just doesn't appear to have had that may top liners like those two in Aus.

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9 hours ago, Huey said:

Don't you think Zabeel and Sir T , did it more in Aus than Savabeel has to date? He just doesn't appear to have had that may top liners like those two in Aus.

Fair point on data but.....   I would suggest a much more competitive stallion market now, lack of truly dominant stallions (Snitzel the exception last couple of years, amazing seasons!), as well as the concept of shuttling stallions taking off more, another factor to take into consideration is that these top Australian stallions are serving 200-220 mares a season!, very hard to compete with that especially at distances 1600m and below.

Savabeel has sired G1 winners of the Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Vinery Stakes, Turnbull Stakes, Queensland Oaks, Victoria Derby, Champagne Stakes, Queensland Derby so doing a very good job in Australia and all at a distance of at least 1600m.

Other stats in Australia are 70% winners to runners and 8.2 stakes winners to runners, the game and the stallion market has changed so much since Sir Tristram's days, but does emphaisse what a remarkable job these stallions from the same line have done! )through in Lonhro now and Pierro into the future)

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2 hours ago, BruceL said:

Fair point on data but.....   I would suggest a much more competitive stallion market now, lack of truly dominant stallions (Snitzel the exception last couple of years, amazing seasons!), as well as the concept of shuttling stallions taking off more, another factor to take into consideration is that these top Australian stallions are serving 200-220 mares a season!, very hard to compete with that especially at distances 1600m and below.

Savabeel has sired G1 winners of the Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Vinery Stakes, Turnbull Stakes, Queensland Oaks, Victoria Derby, Champagne Stakes, Queensland Derby so doing a very good job in Australia and all at a distance of at least 1600m.

Other stats in Australia are 70% winners to runners and 8.2 stakes winners to runners, the game and the stallion market has changed so much since Sir Tristram's days, but does emphaisse what a remarkable job these stallions from the same line have done! )through in Lonhro now and Pierro into the future)

I agree with Bruce on the above but there is also something in the data that could tell us a but more.

Sir Tristram - Average winning distance 1826m

Zabeel - Average winning distance 1836m

Savabeel - Average winning distance 1580m

I feel that you can do better in Australia over more ground because you don't have to compeat against Australian speed. 

My thoughts are that Savabeel has also served more ''faster bred mares'' (O'Reilly).

New Zealand's broodmare band now has more speed compared to twenty years ago due to the injection of more speed stallions.

 

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1 hour ago, Nasrullah said:

I agree with Bruce on the above but there is also something in the data that could tell us a but more.

Sir Tristram - Average winning distance 1826m

Zabeel - Average winning distance 1836m

Savabeel - Average winning distance 1580m

I feel that you can do better in Australia over more ground because you don't have to compeat against Australian speed. 

My thoughts are that Savabeel has also served more ''faster bred mares'' (O'Reilly).

New Zealand's broodmare band now has more speed compared to twenty years ago due to the injection of more speed stallions.

 

Another very valid point, the Savabeel's may have served sharper mares as you have mentioned.

3 great stallions that have stood in NZ, and so many more well bred Savabeel's to hit the track in the future (his recent book's have been amazing)

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20 hours ago, BruceL said:

Another very valid point, the Savabeel's may have served sharper mares as you have mentioned.

3 great stallions that have stood in NZ, and so many more well bred Savabeel's to hit the track in the future (his recent book's have been amazing)

As an aside is it too early to be expecting Savabeel to appear on the scene as a BM sire? From memory Fastnet Rock and High Chap went to stud about the same time and are beginning to emerge as BM sires.

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On 5/18/2018 at 4:07 AM, BruceL said:

Fair point on data but.....   I would suggest a much more competitive stallion market now, lack of truly dominant stallions (Snitzel the exception last couple of years, amazing seasons!), as well as the concept of shuttling stallions taking off more, another factor to take into consideration is that these top Australian stallions are serving 200-220 mares a season!, very hard to compete with that especially at distances 1600m and below.

Savabeel has sired G1 winners of the Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Vinery Stakes, Turnbull Stakes, Queensland Oaks, Victoria Derby, Champagne Stakes, Queensland Derby so doing a very good job in Australia and all at a distance of at least 1600m.

Other stats in Australia are 70% winners to runners and 8.2 stakes winners to runners, the game and the stallion market has changed so much since Sir Tristram's days, but does emphaisse what a remarkable job these stallions from the same line have done! )through in Lonhro now and Pierro into the future)

Not too sure if the stallion lineup is more competitive, I remember when Sir T in his later days was competing against Star Way, Silver Dream, Famous Star, Kingdom Bay and a few others that elude my memory. I maybe misinterpreting your point of competitive now as in the service fees can be higher, but in terms of competition to proven stallions Savabeel is way on top  with Tavistock a long second and then Iffraaj? Stocks are bare... So proven stallions are more of a niche for mine. 

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6 minutes ago, optical said:

Not too sure if the stallion lineup is more competitive, I remember when Sir T in his later days was competing against Star Way, Silver Dream, Famous Star, Kingdom Bay and a few others that elude my memory. I maybe misinterpreting your point of competitive now as in the service fees can be higher, but in terms of competition to proven stallions Savabeel is way on top  with Tavistock a long second and then Iffraaj? Stocks are bare... So proven stallions are more of a niche for mine. 

Australian market more competitive as Australian performance of Savabeel was the target of this conversation.

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11 hours ago, Huey said:

As an aside is it too early to be expecting Savabeel to appear on the scene as a BM sire? From memory Fastnet Rock and High Chap went to stud about the same time and are beginning to emerge as BM sires.

Almost most definitely. Savabeel has been great at leaving a good horse. Probably lacks the quantity of the top performers that Zabeel and Sir Tristram produced? Who is his best horse Kawi and Lucia Valentina? Very good horses but not out and out Champs like Octagonal or Might and Power for example. Should see him with a good horse of two soon you would think. 

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Just now, BruceL said:

Australian market more competitive as Australian performance of Savabeel was the target of this conversation.

Understood and very valid. Over inflated prices I would add though. 

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