RaceCafe..#1...Tipsters Thread.... Share Your Fancies For Fun...Lets See Who The Best Tipsters Here Are.
Treat

Sales

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, chevy86 said:

How many dummy bids do you want Robert before time is called. Problem is there is no point prolonging the agony when there is not a single genuine bid. They no doubt have a protocol of so many dummy bids to try and suck somebody in but if there are no suckers then flag it away. However the system works, I would certainly want Steve Davis selling my yearling, or Morgan, rather than the rest of the bored?/disinterested?/humourless? lot.

Sounds reasonable Chevy. It just appeared that Cambridge were being continually being put aside very quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Festival sale has always been a tough sale for vendors and probably will remain so but it was good to see the Hong Kong buyers there yesterday.

But maybe it is understandable when you look at yesterday's HK race results --winners by unfashionable sires like Rios, Castledale, Nom du Jeu and Nadeem . Also a winnner by Darci Brahma and one by Tavistock ( the dam of which had a Zed colt in the sale yesterday)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 03/02/2018 at 9:12 PM, chevy86 said:

How many dummy bids do you want Robert before time is called. Problem is there is no point prolonging the agony when there is not a single genuine bid. They no doubt have a protocol of so many dummy bids to try and suck somebody in but if there are no suckers then flag it away. However the system works, I would certainly want Steve Davis selling my yearling, or Morgan, rather than the rest of the bored?/disinterested?/humourless? lot.

I was in the unfortunate position of having a horse (book 1) subjected to a mix of dummy bids and genuine bids. Unfortunately one of the dummy bidders (NB - not acting on my instruction, rather the on account stud) bid through the reserve so the hammer fell yet it then transpired the 'purchaser' was the dummy bidder so horse gets passed in. Thoughts on that everyone?? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Nice Option said:

i dont know what level the genuine bids were at but its not a great look is it!! 

It's not a good look!! Also it's an illegal practice although obviously it goes on. If it was mine I'd be bloody furious! I'd rather take my horse home if the 'true' market couldn't pay what I believed was fair - get your horse out and take it to the RTR or get them to pay for it since they bid it up!! And Book 1!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Louise said:

It's not a good look!! Also it's an illegal practice although obviously it goes on. If it was mine I'd be bloody furious! I'd rather take my horse home if the 'true' market couldn't pay what I believed was fair - get your horse out and take it to the RTR or get them to pay for it since they bid it up!! And Book 1!! 

Are you sure it’s illegal? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Are you sure it’s illegal? 

Well it was in 2015 unless you were the part owner of a horse or part of a syndicate that wants to buy your horse outright - NZB policy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From  NZB

2.4 Vendor Bids Prohibited

You as Vendor or any person acting as Your Agent must not bid on any Lot if You are the owner of the Lot, nevertheless: (a) A co-owner of a Lot (such as a partner or syndicate member) may bid if intending to purchase the Lot; and (b) You must in relation to any improper bidding by You or on Your behalf: (i) Pay full commission on any Lot that You buy back.

Sorry can't copy it all...dodgy computer but this is current under the Conditions of sale. The Auctioneer is allowed to bid on behalf of the vendor as long as they say it's a vendor bid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ability of part-owners to legally participate in the auction process with the intention of buying remaining shares in a horse has been clarified after protracted negotiations.

Legislative changes in the Fair Trading Act (1986) with regard to vendor bids have been the subject of submissions by leading auction house New Zealand Bloodstock. Acting in conjunction with the NZ Racing Board’s Head of Government Relations Rajesh Nahna, NZB has been able to ascertain the boundaries within which vendors can act in their endeavours to secure any portion of a horse they don’t already own.

It has been a not uncommon practice for a horse to be offered for public auction with the intention to dissolve a partnership. That is seen as the most effective way to find a horse’s true market value at the same time as enabling any existing part-owner to gain full ownership.

Redrafting of the Fair Trading Act in the interests of consumer protection has led to tighter controls on vendor bidding, with specific reference to real estate offered at auction. Citing vendor bidding with an ulterior motive – known as dummy or shill bidding - as a means of inflating prices, the Commerce Commission has taken steps to clarify and emphasise the restrictions on that illegal practice.

Notwithstanding, dummy bidding by vendors or others remains illegal in a bloodstock auction context.

The tighter controls have implications for bloodstock auction sales, something that NZ Bloodstock acted to address in its own and client interests.

“NZB made lengthy submissions during the consultation process around the Fair Trading Act and many changes were made as a result,” said the company’s co-managing director Petrea Vela. “Unfortunately there was one issue that made it into law and has caused some confusion.

“As the legislation is currently drafted, strictly it doesn’t appear to permit legitimate bidding by a partner or syndicate member who wants to secure 100 per cent ownership in a horse that is sent to public auction to dissolve the partnership.

“We saw that as having the potential to have an impact on our own business and that of our clients. There did appear to be a lack of appreciation of the difference between the real estate auctioning business and ours of repetitive selling and all that it entails.

“We felt a duty to our stakeholders that any new legislation didn’t adversely affect the way we do business daily.”

NZB worked with the Racing Board’s Rajesh Nahna to address what it viewed as anomalous drafting in the new legislation to enable legitimate vendor bidding to still take place in cases of partnership dissolution.

In its response to the NZRB, the Commerce Commission stated that the new vendor bidding provisions around real estate were intended to regulate the use of bids where the ‘vendor’ has no intention of buying the property, and instead intends to push up the auction price.

However, it was further stated, in the case of a vendor wishing to gain full ownership of a part-owned horse, the new vendor bidding restriction would not apply.

“The overarching theme of the law is clearly to prevent conduct that is misleading or deceptive and that will continue to apply,” said Vela. “But it gives some comfort to part-owners that the intention of the law is not to prevent the practice of legitimate part-owner purchases from continuing.

“An ideal result would be to have this exception drafted into the current law, and it is NZB and NZRB’s intention to continue to pursue the matter in the hope of eventually effecting a drafting change to provide greater certainty.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Nice Option said:

I was in the unfortunate position of having a horse (book 1) subjected to a mix of dummy bids and genuine bids. Unfortunately one of the dummy bidders (NB - not acting on my instruction, rather the on account stud) bid through the reserve so the hammer fell yet it then transpired the 'purchaser' was the dummy bidder so horse gets passed in. Thoughts on that everyone?? 

In some countries Nice Option people do serious Gaol time for that, same as soliciting a secret commission, in some countries is called rorting, you guess which ones?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Louise said:

From  NZB

2.4 Vendor Bids Prohibited

You as Vendor or any person acting as Your Agent must not bid on any Lot if You are the owner of the Lot, nevertheless: (a) A co-owner of a Lot (such as a partner or syndicate member) may bid if intending to purchase the Lot; and (b) You must in relation to any improper bidding by You or on Your behalf: (i) Pay full commission on any Lot that You buy back.

Sorry can't copy it all...dodgy computer but this is current under the Conditions of sale. The Auctioneer is allowed to bid on behalf of the vendor as long as they say it's a vendor bid.

Obviously need to turn my hearing aid up or pay more attention .... have never heard that said at Karaka ... or is that what they mean when they say "the bid's with me" ?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, jess said:

Obviously need to turn my hearing aid up or pay more attention .... have never heard that said at Karaka ... or is that what they mean when they say "the bid's with me" ?

 

Hi Jess,

I did hear the vendor bid mentioned by the auctioneer a least once.

Cheers.

Robert.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Nice Option said:

I was in the unfortunate position of having a horse (book 1) subjected to a mix of dummy bids and genuine bids. Unfortunately one of the dummy bidders (NB - not acting on my instruction, rather the on account stud) bid through the reserve so the hammer fell yet it then transpired the 'purchaser' was the dummy bidder so horse gets passed in. Thoughts on that everyone?? 

I can only imagine how gutted you would have been.

Do you think you would sell through the stud  again?

An outside the square question. Do you think you could buy the horse through the sale for the reserve or as small amount as possible, then pay up for the Karaka Million, and then resell it again privately?

Cheers.

Robert.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jess said:

Obviously need to turn my hearing aid up or pay more attention .... have never heard that said at Karaka ... or is that what they mean when they say "the bid's with me" ?

 

It was said stacks yesterday Jess.

My Bid or I Bid was said plenty of times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for responses .. have only seen some of the first two books and in real estate they actually use the words vendor and vendor's bid - obviously it's a wee bit more subtle in the ring at Karaka.  Cheers guys.

The sales are a spectacle and I've enjoyed being there when I've gone - but in my book as far as transparency, equality (in terms of treatment of vendors) and a true picture of value - I don't award very high marks.

Boils down to buyer (and seller) beware.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the responses above. One query - is the dummy bidding that NZB talks about being illegal (unless of course it is a part owner looking to secure full interest) relate to bids under the reserve or over the reserve or both? Obviously dummy bidding over the reserve is highly risky if the bidder doesnt want the horse but is it allowed if the bids are under the reserve?? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know if NZB usually update their sales results with passed horses which are later sold after the sale? ( obviously I would only expect sales that occurred in say the 2 or 3 weeks following the sale, if they do it). There were a couple that passed that I'd be interested in following their progress if sold to NZers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Breeder said:

Does anyone know if NZB usually update their sales results with passed horses which are later sold after the sale? ( obviously I would only expect sales that occurred in say the 2 or 3 weeks following the sale, if they do it). There were a couple that passed that I'd be interested in following their progress if sold to NZers.

I saw a News Release from NZB yesterday that said that it was the "final" so as from today there will not be an update although there might be some changes.

One lot that was passed [Lot 611] has since sold for the passed in price, so I learnt today.

Tony Pike loved her so much that he has since purchased her without any owners, so if you want 10 or 20% give him a call.

I only know this, as I already have shares in horses in the Pike Barn and was offered the opportunity to be part of her today.

I can assure you that there will be no extras whatsoever, anywhere along the line, based on my experience.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just spent three days at Oaklands Melbourne, at the Inglis Premier sales.Some sold well, some not so well. By Wed and the second tier day, prices were very poor many vendors would have lost money and quite frankly I don't know why many of these horses were classed as second tier.It was also evident to me that the auctioneers had had enough and were rushing them through. Give me the NZB auctioneers any day some are more entertaining and give every horse their chance to get the best price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.