beef 74 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 Many interesting points made. But H R does have a problem when an amateurs race at Cambridge is a better betting event than the Auckland Cup full of hot favourites from one stable! LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongOwner 217 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 I think anyone in the game agrees the Purdon team & operation is very professional, successful, huge strike rate / udr and are top drivers combined with money spent . However , to say it is not damaging the sport is missing the big factor - turnover $$$ punted makes the sport go around and pays the stakes. Where is Dave's analysis on SS heats turnover when the all stars dominate, Auckland Cup meeting turnover analysis when dominated by one stable , punter disinterest when they dominate a field etc . That is why the rating system came in - to get even punting fields to improve turnover and maintain stakes . All Stars success will damage themselves as Clubs cannot sustain $250 - $500 k races when there is low punter turnover in those races as they are dominated by one stable . Ask any Club admistrator/director if a SS heat with 4-6 purdon horses with a total field size of 6-8 is good for profit. Their honest answer is they are terrible for the club !! They are no good for the game as punter interest has been lost and without the punter you don’t have stake money . Happy Sunrise 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booby Bec 84 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 Yes very interesting article indeed. I suspect David McCarthy wrote this. He is usually one of the first to greet Mark or Natalie after they win yet another race. They clearly are superior trainers to anyone in NZ and Australia. How they organise their horses here and in Australia truly is a credit to them. However it must be demoralising for other trainers and owners when they think they have a nice horse, then line up against their horses and get smashed!!! What I would say having had the odd share in horses over the years I wouldnt enjoy expecting to just turn up and win!! It's being hopeful rather than expectant which appeals to me. However having the trophy cabinet the Kennards & Co have would be pretty cool tho! One thing I do find cringe worthy is the constant reference to them as 'The All Stars'. As far as I know no one else in harness or gallops is referred to their business rather than themselves? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, LongOwner said: However , to say it is not damaging the sport is missing the big factor - turnover $$$ punted makes the sport go around and pays the stakes. Where is Dave's analysis on SS heats turnover when the all stars dominate, Auckland Cup meeting turnover analysis when dominated by one stable , punter disinterest when they dominate a field etc . That is why the rating system came in - to get even punting fields to improve turnover and maintain stakes . All Stars success will damage themselves as Clubs cannot sustain $250 - $500 k races when there is low punter turnover in those races as they are dominated by one stable . Ask any Club admistrator/director if a SS heat with 4-6 purdon horses with a total field size of 6-8 is good for profit. Their honest answer is they are terrible for the club !! They are no good for the game as punter interest has been lost and without the punter you don’t have stake money . This is what the pro all stars supporters don't seem to appreciate. Apart from the rah rah of going over to smash Australians, there hasn't been much said apart from the original biased article. LongOwner 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotare_Hunter 748 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 11 hours ago, Spikecity said: ALL STARS "NOT GOOD FOR THE GAME"-ITS A MYTH (EDITORIAL) Stats show there are still plenty of races left to win for others if their horses are good enough. (Site Editor) Pacers only. 40 percent of premier stakes are paid out in 3 meetings. 58 percent of the stakes at those 3 meetings went to the All Stars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 11 hours ago, Spikecity said: Indeed relying on a torch-bearing stable like All Stars to raise the profile of the game is far superior to having a series of small teams with little national profile. Far Superior? I disagree. Certainly disagree with the term 'far superior' The article in itself is quite condescending once you have read it a few times. I don't think the national profile is any better with the domination. The interdominion barely raised a ripple. Profile comes from having challengers to the dominant stable. Which there are none at the moment. If Dunn, Hill, Todd, Court, Mowbray, Barron, Herlihy or McGrath had some true topliners between them then it would create interest. The weakened state of North Island harness is another factor as well since they are not offering much at the moment. Tiger Tara coming back for the Cup hardly set the heart rate on fire as it had been there and failed at that. I would rather have a Connors, McEnroe and Borg contest than having a Serena Williams procession any day. Profile comes from even contests and controversy....England V All Blacks anyone? I just tire from the All Blacks V Italy which it seems like at the moment and that is no fault of the All Stars by the way. (Quote from the article, not spike) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harewood 477 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 27 minutes ago, Booby Bec said: As far as I know no one else in harness or gallops is referred to their business rather than themselves? When the Butt stable was dominating in the nineties they were always known as The Premier Stables. They were then but not so now so the name has been shelved in the meantime even thou that is still the name of T Butts stable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booby Bec 84 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 1 minute ago, harewood said: When the Butt stable was dominating in the nineties they were always known as The Premier Stables. They were then but not so now so the name has been shelved in the meantime even thou that is still the name of T Butts stable. Yep, but not to the same extent. Mark Jones Overport Lodge, Steve McCrae, Spreydon Lodge to name a couple but hardly ever mentioned by media. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richie 1,025 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 6 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said: Sure will, The Aussie V NZ contest in New Zealand may interest the news agencies more than domestic racing no matter how prestigious. It has to be 'big' to get any traction these days. But will be interesting to see how many Aussies bother to come over. Then we may see the true strength of the All Star domination! We see the true strength of the All Stars every year in Australia where they have over a 40% winning record. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 4 minutes ago, richie said: We see the true strength of the All Stars every year in Australia where they have over a 40% winning record. So will the Aussies bother coming in force when they don't even have home field advantage and extra costs to contend with? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 Just had a brainwave on how to fix this dominance and make everyone happy. We will restrict the All Stars to 5 Group 1 wins and 15 placings per season in New Zealand. Phew. Solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harewood 477 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said: Just had a brainwave on how to fix this dominance and make everyone happy. We will restrict the All Stars to 5 Group 1 wins and 15 placings per season in New Zealand. Phew. Solved. Can see the smoke coming from the Kennards ears from here. So maybe not quite everyone Happy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 Just now, harewood said: Can see the smoke coming from the Kennards ears from here. Owners are allowed a maximum of 1 Group win and 1 placing. He has won enough! Every winner deserves to be restricted as it is a fair business model I love making stuff up as I go! Put me on the board of something....galloping track maintenance....I will start at the top! harewood 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spikecity 747 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 And drivers restricted to two wins a day hehe - well done yesterday to Sam Ottley Happy Sunrise 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 1 minute ago, Spikecity said: And drivers restricted to two wins a day hehe - well done yesterday to Sam Ottley And punters are restricted to losing a maximum of $20 per day regardless of how much they spend. I think I have had too much of what Iraklis has. Spikecity 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraklis 2,203 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 Don't you bloody worry bout what I'm on guys, but if yuh wanna know it's called 'passionate' about seein the Kiwi guns runnin, and doin what they were bred to do RACE! I love nothin better than watchin us (any bloody good horse from any Kiwi stable) take on the aussies and clean em up! that's what it's all about, hell, I believe The Iceman maybe bout to go over there with his Temporale, I say goooo Tony H!!!!! rip into it...... Happy S, Mark P will always be Kiwi no matter where he's based......FlagU, perhaps a good double dose of epsom salts will help you with your issue!!!! Cheers Iraklis Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Iraklis said: Mark P will always be Kiwi no matter where he's based. even when he is based in Auckland? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted January 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said: Just had a brainwave on how to fix this dominance and make everyone happy. We will restrict the All Stars to 5 Group 1 wins and 15 placings per season in New Zealand. Phew. Solved. Brilliant idea Happy. Winning punters in harness racing are restricted so why not bring restrictions in for winning trainers and drivers, what is the difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 23 minutes ago, Brodie said: Brilliant idea Happy. I used to be the Minister of Horse Racing in North Korea so I know a thing or two about the game. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraklis 2,203 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 HappyS, especially so mate, after all it's his home town! and Nat is most welcome also, being as she is honorary Kiwi now they just bring that summit extra to racenight, just the same as Josh and The Mighty Spur do..... Cheers Iraklis Happy Sunrise 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee270744 682 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 Chris Waller would be well pleased he trains in Aussie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalcolmH 40 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 Let's not forget that Allstars are essentially a business. They train for big spending owners who expect big bucks for the big bucks they spend.It would be fairer for the industry if the big owners spread some of their horses around other trainers but apart from the odd one that doesn't happen.They aren't interested in the Central Otago or West Coast circuits unless there are big stakes on offer so apart from the big stakes meetings are they really doing anything for the industry. I don't think so!! Go to those meetings and see the passion and dedication of the grass roots people. The crowds go there and the mood is relaxed and friendly. There is a touch of arrogance about AllStars and their big owners. When they decide to plunder the big races down south for example (thus depriving smaller owners the chance to win in their own area)they don't even bother to show up for the presentations. Most owners in their life time would love to win one big race and when they do they they relive it for many years after - could the same be said about the AllStars owners after all it is just a business for them!! Booby Bec and LongOwner 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise 554 Report post Posted January 6, 2018 19 minutes ago, MalcolmH said: There is a touch of arrogance about AllStars and their big owners. In defence of these owners, don't some sponsor quite a few races? I don't have any intimate knowledge of All Stars owners but the Kennards etc put back into the game, don't they? That is the perception I have but may be way off the mark. It would be difficult to tar all the owners with the same brush, wouldn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Report post Posted January 6, 2018 31 minutes ago, MalcolmH said: Let's not forget that Allstars are essentially a business. They train for big spending owners who expect big bucks for the big bucks they spend.It would be fairer for the industry if the big owners spread some of their horses around other trainers but apart from the odd one that doesn't happen.They aren't interested in the Central Otago or West Coast circuits unless there are big stakes on offer so apart from the big stakes meetings are they really doing anything for the industry. I don't think so!! Go to those meetings and see the passion and dedication of the grass roots people. The crowds go there and the mood is relaxed and friendly. There is a touch of arrogance about AllStars and their big owners. When they decide to plunder the big races down south for example (thus depriving smaller owners the chance to win in their own area)they don't even bother to show up for the presentations. Most owners in their life time would love to win one big race and when they do they they relive it for many years after - could the same be said about the AllStars owners after all it is just a business for them!! Malcolm, you are correct on a number of your points! The Owners who have horses trained by The AllStars Stable do deserve to get results as they chuck a helluva lot of money into training. Most of the owners are very humble and appreciative and love the racing game and don’t really think they do it for the money but rather the fun of racing and knowing they have very good horses. You are correct that they don’t support the lower class meetings but that in my opinion is a good thing as otherwise they would certainly clean those meetings up too. Is it good that they plunder all the group races and the answer is no it is detrimental to the harness industry majorly! There are a few enthusiasts on here that think having one stable totally dominate harness racing in Australasia is good for The industry, however the majority of Harness Racing participants are not appreciative of it, but most have to keep quiet about it!! ! Do they also think that the Australian owners and trainers love Kiwis going over there and selectively picking up the major stakes from their group races At the expense of the owners over there??? No, they hate it and how can you blame them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richie 1,025 Report post Posted January 7, 2018 5 hours ago, MalcolmH said: Let's not forget that Allstars are essentially a business. They train for big spending owners who expect big bucks for the big bucks they spend.It would be fairer for the industry if the big owners spread some of their horses around other trainers but apart from the odd one that doesn't happen.They aren't interested in the Central Otago or West Coast circuits unless there are big stakes on offer so apart from the big stakes meetings are they really doing anything for the industry. I don't think so!! Go to those meetings and see the passion and dedication of the grass roots people. The crowds go there and the mood is relaxed and friendly. There is a touch of arrogance about AllStars and their big owners. When they decide to plunder the big races down south for example (thus depriving smaller owners the chance to win in their own area)they don't even bother to show up for the presentations. Most owners in their life time would love to win one big race and when they do they they relive it for many years after - could the same be said about the AllStars owners after all it is just a business for them!! Of course they a business.Any professional trainer that not running it as a business these days surely not worth a pinch of salt.Just like all professional sports racing is a business.I liken the All Stars to the All Blacks. It is up to other teams to find ways to compete with them. Fartoomuch 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...